School Choice For Meeee, but not for Theeee!

Nov 8, 2012
20,842
4,785
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Always classy seeing the documented hypocrisy of the left. Similar to government healthcare in which they will force US Citizens to pick shit plans - they of course get the cream of the crop.

But school choice is definitely one of the best. Going out and advocating for forcing people to go to certain schools, getting rid of charters and school choice - but for some reason you feel the need to send your own kids to private institutions. Fancy that, eh?



 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
26,067
24,396
136
I don't give two shits where people send their kids to school. Charter, private or public.

I just oppose taking that funding away from public schools if they do so. Also, school choice is fine if it is implemented properly. It can do good but it can also easily further segregation based on class/race. Vouchers are one of those bad ideas. And none of the school choices that take any taxpayer funds should have any religious affiliation.

If Warren lied, bad on her. She should be called out for it.

But yet again, OP finding grievance against only a left of center WOMAN. Meanwhile never a post on the fact that 9 out of every 10 statements coming out of anybody in the GQP these days is a lie, vs the occasional whopper from a Dem.
 

jman19

Lifer
Nov 3, 2000
11,225
664
126
I don't give two shits where people send their kids to school. Charter, private or public.

I just oppose taking that funding away from public schools if they do so. Also, school choice is fine if it is implemented properly. It can do good but it can also easily further segregation based on class/race. Vouchers are one of those bad ideas. And none of the school choices that take any taxpayer funds should have any religious affiliation.

If Warren lied, bad on her. She should be called out for it.

But yet again, OP finding grievance against only a left of center WOMAN. Meanwhile never a post on the fact that 9 out of every 10 statements coming out of anybody in the GQP these days is a lie, vs the occasional whopper from a Dem.

He's very concerned.
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,026
2,879
136
Explain to me what is hypocritical. Is she saying those who have the ability to pay for private education shouldn't be able to choose to do so?
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
39,345
32,848
136
Vouchers as implemented just wind up being a windfall for parents who can already afford to send their kids to private school.

What if vouchers were a semester of education instead of a $ amount and private schools had to accept everyone? All of a sudden conservatives would be against vouchers. Just imagine the precious cargo at Sidwell Friends were being educated alongside the riff raff of city kids.
 

mect

Platinum Member
Jan 5, 2004
2,424
1,637
136
It isn't at all hypocritical to lobby for public schools while sending your own kids to private schools. The purpose of lobbying for public schools is to make it so that everyone has access to quality education. The problem with private schools is that it decreases the pressure to properly fund public schools because the wealthy don't care due to their children at the private schools not being affected.

People that complain about this are the same as those that think AOC should have to live in the slums and dress like homeless people just because she is trying to make things better for the lower class.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
33,519
17,023
136
It isn't at all hypocritical to lobby for public schools while sending your own kids to private schools. The purpose of lobbying for public schools is to make it so that everyone has access to quality education. The problem with private schools is that it decreases the pressure to properly fund public schools because the wealthy don't care due to their children at the private schools not being affected.

People that complain about this are the same as those that think AOC should have to live in the slums and dress like homeless people just because she is trying to make things better for the lower class.

It makes sense to you because you aren’t an idiot and you possess basic critical thinking skills. Imagine if you didn’t possess those skills, you’d be as dumb as the op.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
72,844
33,907
136
Vouchers as implemented just wind up being a windfall for parents who can already afford to send their kids to private school.

What if vouchers were a semester of education instead of a $ amount and private schools had to accept everyone? All of a sudden conservatives would be against vouchers. Just imagine the precious cargo at Sidwell Friends were being educated alongside the riff raff of city kids.
Sidwell Friends used to do just that. Now, even with financial aid, it's pretty expensive.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
15,142
10,040
136
It isn't at all hypocritical to lobby for public schools while sending your own kids to private schools.


I am inclined to think it _is_ hypocritical. Elite liberal hypocrisy about this issue has irritated me my whole life ('irritated' being probably about the right word, neither stronger-nor-weaker than that).

It's not a good look to want racial integration while participating in, and seeking to benefit from, economic segregation. Private schools are an instrument of class-apartheid.

I quite liked Warren, as a candidate, but certainly her sending her children to private schools is a mark against her. Though as far as I can tell it's something she has in common with pretty much all top US politicians of either party, so I don't see how it can be a deal-breaker. Charter schools remain a bad idea, just as Academies are here (they seem to be pretty much the same concept).

If Warren is a hypocrite about it, then she's a hypocrite about it, that doesn't change the truth-or-falsity of what she says. That's the thing about hypocrisy - it doesn't say anything about the rights-and-wrongs of the actual topic.

Edit - I didn't watch the video, can't be arsed with Youtube videos, I'm just guessing as to what the point being made in it is.
 
Nov 8, 2012
20,842
4,785
146
Explain to me what is hypocritical. Is she saying those who have the ability to pay for private education shouldn't be able to choose to do so?

Everyone pays for school with their tax dollars - shouldn't they have a say? Shouldn't they have the ability to say - your school district is vastly overfunded yet is complete dog shit - I'm sending my child to a place that actually cares about their students and their success?
 

mect

Platinum Member
Jan 5, 2004
2,424
1,637
136
I am inclined to think it _is_ hypocritical. Elite liberal hypocrisy about this issue has irritated me my whole life ('irritated' being probably about the right word, neither stronger-nor-weaker than that).

It's not a good look to want racial integration while participating in, and seeking to benefit from, economic segregation. Private schools are an instrument of class-apartheid.

I quite liked Warren, as a candidate, but certainly her sending her children to private schools is a mark against her. Though as far as I can tell it's something she has in common with pretty much all top US politicians of either party, so I don't see how it can be a deal-breaker. Charter schools remain a bad idea, just as Academies are here (they seem to be pretty much the same concept).

If Warren is a hypocrite about it, then she's a hypocrite about it, that doesn't change the truth-or-falsity of what she says. That's the thing about hypocrisy - it doesn't say anything about the rights-and-wrongs of the actual topic.

Edit - I didn't watch the video, can't be arsed with Youtube videos, I'm just guessing as to what the point being made in it is.
So in other words you believe that to work towards a better world, you have to expose yourself and family to all the disadvantages you are trying to fix? Yes, private schools are an instrument of class segregation. So is housing. Do you think politicians fighting for progressive housing initiatives can't live in wealthy neighborhoods. Particularly considering, even if Warren did send her kids to public schools (one of her two kids did attend public schools btw), if she lived in a wealthy neighborhood, her kids would likely have still enjoyed significant benefits because the public schools would have been much better funded compared to poorer districts.

I think you need to be more careful about how you define hypocrisy. She would be a hypocrite if she said wealthy people shouldn't send their kids to private schools, which I've never heard her say (maybe she has). She would also be a hypocrite if laws were passed banning private schools based on her legislation, but she created a loop hole allowing her to send her kids to private schools. This is very different from fighting to improve public schools while sending her child to a private school. Her sending her own kids to public schools fixes nothing. It would be purely theater. Passing legislation that promotes public schools over elite private schools on the other hand does fix the problem. I don't blame her for not disadvantaging her children purely for the sake of political theater.

Consider professional sports teams before salary caps. Even if a program believed in a salary cap, that doesn't mean that they should have to subject themselves to the salary cap before the rules were passed just to avoid hypocrisy. It means that if the rules are changed, then they are willing to play by them.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
15,142
10,040
136
So in other words you believe that to work towards a better world, you have to expose yourself and family to all the disadvantages you are trying to fix? Yes, private schools are an instrument of class segregation. So is housing. Do you think politicians fighting for progressive housing initiatives can't live in wealthy neighborhoods. Particularly considering, even if Warren did send her kids to public schools (one of her two kids did attend public schools btw), if she lived in a wealthy neighborhood, her kids would likely have still enjoyed significant benefits because the public schools would have been much better funded compared to poorer districts.

I think you need to be more careful about how you define hypocrisy. She would be a hypocrite if she said wealthy people shouldn't send their kids to private schools, which I've never heard her say (maybe she has). She would also be a hypocrite if laws were passed banning private schools based on her legislation, but she created a loop hole allowing her to send her kids to private schools. This is very different from fighting to improve public schools while sending her child to a private school. Her sending her own kids to public schools fixes nothing. It would be purely theater. Passing legislation that promotes public schools over elite private schools on the other hand does fix the problem. I don't blame her for not disadvantaging her children purely for the sake of political theater.

Consider professional sports teams before salary caps. Even if a program believed in a salary cap, that doesn't mean that they should have to subject themselves to the salary cap before the rules were passed just to avoid hypocrisy. It means that if the rules are changed, then they are willing to play by them.

I'm largely going on my own reactions. I sometimes find, when encountering affluent liberals, that I find myself thinking, if _I_ find them annoying, despite actually agreeing with most of what they say, how much counter-productive resentment must they provoke from those more proletarian than I am?

Every time the Guardian, for example, carries an article decrying the under-representation of some group, women or black people, say, in some institution, they always have to delete any comment anyone posts pointing out the massive over-representation of the privately-educated (or elite grammar-school educated) and Oxbridge on the paper's own staff. And if you are sending your own children to such schools, it _is_ hypocrisy, to in theory favour a more equal society, yet do everything you can to ensure your own family continue to benefit from class privilege for generation after generation. That's why Labour politicians regularly get into hot water for sending their children to private or grammar schools.

It just isn't a good look to rail against some kinds of segregation and inequality while doing all you can to profit fro another kind. And politically you will have more success at bringing people with you if you share their experiences and concerns.

As for playing what is called the 'school catchment area game' - yeah, there's an inevitable degree of hypocrisy there as well, but I think it's a question of degree. The difference in resources and standards between different state schools of the same type has not, traditionally, been anywhere near as great as that between the state and private sector, not since the end of the grammar/secondary modern distinction (though now the Academies concept has allowed sneaking privatisation of all state schools, and reintroduction of selection by the back door, here that has started to change, which is depressing, and a reason why I dislike Academies/charter schools).

The fundamental problem surely has to be when all the major political figures, even those on 'the left' have so much money that the dilemma even arises for them. For most people, sending children to private school isn't an option because they can't afford it.

The 7% of the population who are privately-educated here increasingly dominate the media and everything else.

e.g. from https://www.gov.uk/government/news/elitism-in-britain-2019

  • Senior judges - 65%
  • Civil Service permanent secretaries - 59%
  • The House of Lords - 57%
  • Foreign and Commonwealth Office diplomats - 52%
The media also has some of the highest numbers of privately educated people. Of the 100 most influential news editors and broadcasters, 43% went to fee-paying schools. Similarly, 44% of newspaper columnists were privately educated, with a third - 33% - attending both an independent school and Oxbridge.

I'd also mention that the presenters on the main non-BBC radio station, LBC, are most all privately-educated, as are most 'ordinary bloke' 'in touch with the masses' conservative commentators and politicians (like Nigel Farage or Kelvin Mckenzie)

So it's hard not to roll one's eyes when a privately educated writer on a paper full of privately-educated writers goes on about the under-representation of a disadvantaged group at some other institution.


I certainly wouldn't spit hate at Warren, or anyone else who at least tries to do the right thing on a political level, over this issue, my point is that it _is_ a vulnerability and a political weakness (and also a pet-irritation) but it doesn't invalidate everything she says. It's the sort of thing that I tend to remember when a politician or commentator backslides and stops trying to do the right thing by the majority of ordinary people, though. E.g. Chris Hitchens - it was when he moved rightward that I most remembered he was the son of an admiral and privately educated.

(My facetious idea is that we should send all the most disruptive and troubled students to the most elite private schools to be educated alongside the children of the rich, because those schools are the ones best resourced to deal with them.)
 
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interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,026
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Everyone pays for school with their tax dollars - shouldn't they have a say? Shouldn't they have the ability to say - your school district is vastly overfunded yet is complete dog shit - I'm sending my child to a place that actually cares about their students and their success?

Again, explain to me what makes Warren a liar and a hypocrite here.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
20,986
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I'm largely going on my own reactions. I sometimes find, when encountering affluent liberals, that I find myself thinking, if _I_ find them annoying, despite actually agreeing with most of what they say, how much counter-productive resentment must they provoke from those more proletarian than I am?

Every time the Guardian, for example, carries an article decrying the under-representation of some group, women or black people, say, in some institution, they always have to delete any comment anyone posts pointing out the massive over-representation of the privately-educated (or elite grammar-school educated) and Oxbridge on the paper's own staff. And if you are sending your own children to such schools, it _is_ hypocrisy, to in theory favour a more equal society, yet do everything you can to ensure your own family continue to benefit from class privilege for generation after generation. That's why Labour politicians regularly get into hot water for sending their children to private or grammar schools.

I disagree. If she publicly advocated for better 'non privileged' schools while privately working against those institutions in some way, she'd be a hypocrite. Or if she publicly advocated that 'privileged' schools are no better than 'non privileged' schools then sent her kids to 'privileged' schools, she'd be a hypocrite. Or if she advocated for the abolition of 'privileged' schools while sending her kids to them, then she'd be a hypocrite. Jeremy Corbyn opposes selective education, and Theresa May tried to call him out on his kid going to a grammar school, but it turns out that his wife wanted to send their kid there and they ended up actually getting divorced over the issue.

Her (Warren) sending her kids to 'privileged' schools does not exacerbate the problem.

Admittedly I don't know much about her positions, but I'm about a third of the way through this page on her site:
and I haven't seen anything that smacks of hypocrisy re sending her kids to a 'privileged' school. She wants to improve 'non-privileged' schools, good for her.

PS: I'm using 'privileged' / 'non-privileged' labels because especially in the UK the labels are really confusing like 'public' and 'private' school being the same thing, and I have no idea if Americans have similarly weird labels.
 
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Pohemi

Lifer
Oct 2, 2004
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PS: I'm using 'privileged' / 'non-privileged' labels because especially in the UK the labels are really confusing like 'public' and 'private' school being the same thing, and I have no idea if Americans have similarly weird labels.
Public schools are organized, regulated, and funded fully by our government. The teachers and admin are all gov positions.
Private schools are not. They may have access to some funding from the state/federal gov from education budgets, but generally speaking, most of their funding comes from student tuition, private donations (directly to the school, or to the connected/associated church or religious org).
Regulations (or lack thereof) would be the most stark difference besides funding sources and levels.
 

Pohemi

Lifer
Oct 2, 2004
10,877
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Aye, just explaining what our definitions typically entailed here in the states, and the difference when someone refers to 'public' vs. 'private' schooling in the US. ;)

Summary explanation is that the fucktard OP thinks that someone fighting for better 'public' schools and education, more funding, etc can't then choose to send their own kids to a private school because it means they aren't actually serious about fixing our educational system. Or some such stupid shit.
 

Homerboy

Lifer
Mar 1, 2000
30,890
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Honest to Christ, regardless of your political leaning, if you're posting random YouTube videos to support/make your argument, you've already lost. I'm not clicking on that link or any other YouTube link that doesn't contain footballs in groins or cats being derps.