Says barrier will disrupt lives of 680,000 Palestinians, carve off 14.5% of West Bank
- Thread starter Czar
- Start date
If the wall suceeds in stopping or greatly slowing suicide bombings... then it'll be worth it for everyone.
IMHO I don't see any other option right now... it's politically impossible at this point to remove, or abandon the settlements to be included in the wall. And the wall would also limit the expansion of the settlements, which would be good right?
-Max
IMHO I don't see any other option right now... it's politically impossible at this point to remove, or abandon the settlements to be included in the wall. And the wall would also limit the expansion of the settlements, which would be good right?
-Max
It wouldn't limit the settlememnts I'm sure they will build out side the wall or expanded the wall when ever they feel like it.
cant say I feel that much sympathy for the Palestinians... I'm more concerned with stopping the bombings than with the comfort of the Palestinians.
Just how I feel about it. Once the bombings are under control, we can make another run at settling this mess and setting up a Palestinian state.
-Max
Just how I feel about it. Once the bombings are under control, we can make another run at settling this mess and setting up a Palestinian state.
-Max
this wall is just plain and simple land grab since every palestinian cought in the land between the wall and the green line need permission from Israel to live there
I would 100% support the wall if it were on Isreali land going by the green line but thats not what happened, now there are plans of extending the wall down the west bank / Lebanon border which basicly creates a prison. The wall does one thing, and that is increase tension.
but the suicide bombings are just symptoms of a much much bigger problem but because of tactics used by both the Isreli gov and the palestinian terrorists the ones suffering are civilians. Collective punishment is inexcusable
And what would happen if the IDF withdrew from those settlement?
I can garentee you they wouldn't ask them to leave politely.
I can garentee you they wouldn't ask them to leave politely.
I think you're wrong on two levels... first of all suicide bombings are not symptoms, they are the disease. They are the gun the Palestinain power groups use, to maintain their power base. The groups responsible for these bombings consider the Jewish presence in the middle east an occupation, the green line is irrelevant to them. The settlements are irrelevant to them.
Secondly, the wall is not about collective punishment. The wall is about protecting Israelis from these bombings. And politically speaking it's impossible for Sharon to abandon the settlements, he has to build the walls into the west bank, or he will lose power, and the government will move even further to the right. And my sorrow for the Palestinians who will suffer because of this wall, is somewhat relieved by the Israelis who will live safer because of it.
Just my honest opinion.
-Max
Israel does not deserve security as long as they believe their right to security supercedes the rights of Palestinians. It is foolish . . . not to mention immoral to advocate the subjugation of the innocent. The most effective offensive weapon against regional terrorists acting against Israel would be a Palestinian state with a well-organized security force cooperating with the IDF.
by that definition the same can be said about all the inhabitants of the settlements, they want the Palestinians gone and want Israel like it was over 2000 years ago, and therefor those who support the settlements like the Israeli goverment are supporting that idea. But we all know that that is unrealistic just like removing Israel from the middle east.
Then, what do you think should be done about the settlements?
This is a case of "Not in My backyard" easy to say this, when it's not your security threatened. Lets be honest here... our own security ALWAYS supercedes ANYTHING else... would you risk the lives of your children? I think not.
However I completely agree with your second statement... the way to peace is a peaceful Palestinian state next to Israel.... But isnt that the whole beast of the problem?... Actually making that happen, with the right borders, where to put the refugees?... and making sure the new state isn't headed by Hamas. I'm sure you have your armchair quarterback opinions of how to solve these issues... but really it comes down to what Israelis and Palestinians want. Not what you and others think they should have.
-Max
Personally I think they should be removed outright... but thats politically impossible right now. I think the settlements an absolutely insane obscenity. They need to get the hell out of there.
-Max
Actually that's not what NIMBY means but I understand your comment. Alas you've come across the wrong person. I wouldn't take my wife to Jakarta or anywhere on Sumatra but I would have no qualms about going back to Bali/Denpaser. My own security does not always supercede everything else. I would not risk the lives of YOUR children for anything but I can think of a myriad of trade offs I would take for risking my own.
IMHO, Likud/Sharon policy risks the lives of Israeli AND Palestinian children. The settlements risk the lives of Israeli and Palestinian children. The duplicity of Bush/Neocons risk the lives of Israeli and Palestinian children. And of course Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, and every nation that provides support to such organizations risks the lives of Israeli and Palestinian children.
The simple solution to Israeli-Arab discord is for Israel to give up all settlements, grant VERY limited right of return, establish Jerusalem as a world city to be shared (hopefully as the capital of Israel and Palestine), and support the establishment of a strong PA security force. On the Arab (Palestinian) side, they will cease any and all support for organizations that have militant wings or provide support to militant organizations, they will crack down (with the cooperation of the IDF) on terrorist remnants within PA territory, they will vigorously enforce the VERY limited right of return, provide extremely tight security on their borders with Syria, Jordan, Egypt AND Israel, and the Arab League will immediately convene a world Arab summit to codify the right of Israel to exist as a sovereign Jewish state and all Arab states have a responsibility to defend the security of that state.
Simple ain't it . . .
I don't think the people in the settlements should have to move. That is there home. The Isreali goverment is wrong to have set them up in the first place, but you can't put the Genie back in the bottle.
They should be required to agree to follow the laws of Palistine.
But in the simplicity lies the complexity.... How would you deal with Sovereignty over religious sites in the old city of Jerusalem. Such as the Temple Mount, the Western Wall, and the Al Aqsa Mosque?...
Right of return to Israel?, or to the newly created state of Palestine?
Cracking down on terrorists?... That requires the PA to actually be willing to do that.
And as for places like Syria recognizing Israel as a Jewish state.... what is done about the Golan Heights and Shebaa Farms?...
There is no simple solution.
I respect your opinion. But I think Sharon is doing the right thing in his hardline stance... I don't believe a dovish Prime Minister would be anything but ineffective, futile, and weak at this point in the crisis.
-Max
Shalom v'hakol Yisrael
Shalom v'hakol Olam
By your argument of home I could walk onto the little isle of Manhattan, set up a tent city in Central Park, and call it home. The genie will go back in the damn bottle or the bottle will be broken over the genie's arse.
Sharon's hawkish stance is part of what got him elected but there's certainly been ZERO progress since Barak (I guess you would call him the last dove) left office. The US/Israel essentially GUARANTEED Arafat's position by colluding to put him on the sidelines. Abbas had potential but Israel (and US) policy was just as much a handicap as the tremulous old terrorist calling the shots from Ramallah.
You may believe Sharon is doing the right thing but IMHO doing the right thing has produced nothing but hardship and bloodshed for Israelis and Palestinians. On the current course as established by the leadership in Tel Aviv, DC, Damascus, and Tehran . . . everybody is a hawk. Unfortunately, they are not preying upon one another . . . just the people they are allegedly trying to defend or support.
Czar has raised an interesting point, why isn't the barrier being built on the border? Has Israel offered an explanation as to why?
I had (misplaced) high hopes for Abbas... but lets looka t his tenure honestly... the man had absolutely no intention of taking a strong stance against groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad. And to ask Israel to lay off of these organizations is ridiculous... If you take a moment to examine the attacks against Hamas during Abbas's tenure, you'll notice that Israel was extremely effective and clearly extremely careful in regard to avoiding innocent casualties. And yet Abbas still absolutely refused to arrest a single terrorist.
Sharon's policy hasnt changed from the day he walked into office. He will do everything in his power to degrade and damage organizations like Hamas and Islamic Jihad. If he wasn't leashed by international criticism, he'd have gotten rid of Arafat by now, and maybe we'd be moving towards a Palestinian leader who actually has some power. He's been clear from the beginning... he's for a Palestinian state, but he's going to operate to defend Israel without regard for that end at the cost of innocent Israelis. I respect him for this hard decision, and for staying the course regardless of criticism.
You think that if Peres were in power, that we'd be closer to a solution?... or that the violence would be more subdued?...
The conflict was born under a dove Barak.... who I have enourmous respect for, and who genuinely reached out for peace. Barak got elected to office on his platform of promising peace. Sharon was elected because the Israeli people were, are convinced that the Palestinians are not ready for peace. And I for one think that remains true now.
Until Palestinians take the power away from their extremists... there will be no peace.
-Max
Doboji,
just curious, what do you think about the Geneva accord? regardless of if it can happen but are the conditions something you could agree with?
just curious, what do you think about the Geneva accord? regardless of if it can happen but are the conditions something you could agree with?
I think your recollection of the past 10 years of this conflict is quite selective. Arafat is certainly an obstacle to peace but I think there's hope b/c he's just a terrorist leader without much popular support (except following US/Israeli efforts to diminish his influence). Sharon is an expert killer. He hasn't lost his taste for power. He is clearly committed to a greater Israeli state . . . how else can you explain the tremendous expansion of settlements (plus new outposts) occurring during his tenure in office?!
Barak was a warrior yet he negotiated for peace and no one doubts Rabin's credentials as a warrior or peacemaker. Alas, Barak paid the price for Arafat's lack of vision and Rabin paid the price for Israel's ultra-right vision . . . which curiously has found a home in Sharon's coalition. I guarantee you more and more Americans will demand US officials reduce support for Israel as long as Israel builds fences/walls on territory belonging to Palestinians and calls missile strikes that kill 3 innocent civilians and 1 terrorist . . . successful.
If America doesn't have enough money (and certainly not enough friends) to protect itself from enemies abroad there's absolutely no hope that Israel will become secure without the cooperation of its Middle Eastern cohorts. Sharon is selling the Israeli people false hope. We can build more settlements. We can build a wall. We can defeat the terrorists. Israel can certainly build settlements and build a wall but only a coalition of countries has any hope of defeating the terrorists. Israel is isolating itself at the very time when they need allies.
Barak was a warrior yet he negotiated for peace and no one doubts Rabin's credentials as a warrior or peacemaker. Alas, Barak paid the price for Arafat's lack of vision and Rabin paid the price for Israel's ultra-right vision . . . which curiously has found a home in Sharon's coalition. I guarantee you more and more Americans will demand US officials reduce support for Israel as long as Israel builds fences/walls on territory belonging to Palestinians and calls missile strikes that kill 3 innocent civilians and 1 terrorist . . . successful.
If America doesn't have enough money (and certainly not enough friends) to protect itself from enemies abroad there's absolutely no hope that Israel will become secure without the cooperation of its Middle Eastern cohorts. Sharon is selling the Israeli people false hope. We can build more settlements. We can build a wall. We can defeat the terrorists. Israel can certainly build settlements and build a wall but only a coalition of countries has any hope of defeating the terrorists. Israel is isolating itself at the very time when they need allies.
There is no 1967 border. There was a cease-fire line between the wars of 1948 and 1967. The areas captured by Israel are disputed by both sides.
The fence obviously is a unilateral anti-terrorist measure designed to protect the maximum number of Israelis, not to facilitate the Palestinian demand that Israel withdraw from 100% of those territories.
The fence obviously is a unilateral anti-terrorist measure designed to protect the maximum number of Israelis, not to facilitate the Palestinian demand that Israel withdraw from 100% of those territories.
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