M: This is a form of self flattery. I have been running around cooking a beef stir fry and paying bills so I will have some time to play a game later and naturally help you see what you so far are unable to. I pop in, as it were, from the dark side of the Moon, and surprise you with fact you don't understand and the minute I announce some fact like this, I suddenly become angry. Hehehe I have long and extensive experience with this kind of anger.
CK: If you're not angry, then why do you keep using angry words? While accusing me of being angry, when I do not?
Does this make any sort of sense to you? It does not to me, and probably not to anyone else here either.
M: You should see by now that there is an answer to every point of view you have from inside your prison but that the answer is then seen from inside that prison creating a new question. You think you can judge what is sense and what is not. You have been programmed to think you can reason out the truth while lacking the sense to do so and I have been programmed to be aware that I will try to do that. When I first encountered a teaching that explained to me my prison, that concealed prejudice called ego, barred my way, I inclined in the direction of listening. I turned my back on the notion that I knew something about sense and listened to the wisdom of idiots, not the sensible people that so dominate here. This has made me indifferent to folk who say I don't make sense and or that most might not agree with mu view. That is for folk who are looking for validation from the outside.
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M: We are born perfect and in a state of oneness, no ego self to divide us from feeling we are everything that there is. We are born in a God state but we can have it taken away because we do not have consciousness that has separated from God and returned. We were born with an infinite potential to love and were killed. It is the programming that separated us from God, the acquisition of language and the inculcation of emotion into words, the belief there is good and evil and then that happy day when we were told we are worthless, that we are evil, etc, the day we rejected our true self. The day we recover that state of oneness is the day we remember God.
M: Sorry, but every bit of that pseudo-mystical hokum is itself programming.
Babies are born as blank slates. They get taught silly nonsense about gods and "consciousness that has separated from God" and all the similar rot.
M: Ah crap, not the tabula rasa shit. We were born with the most complex computing device in the known universe right between our ears to be limited from day one by arrogant opinions. The computer is hard wired, as a human brain, at the gross level, and
can run an infinite number of programs. For thousands of years folk who have awakened to some of it's higher potentials have been exploring and refining its capabilities. It has been known for quite some time now that at whatever capacity a person may be running, he or she always feels certain that their level is the best there is.
For these reasons those who experience states that transcend ordinary awareness, maybe a state of universal love, have worked to provide knowledge for those who feel something is missing, that their brains aren't functioning up to speed. The capacity aches to be used.
M: Yes but deprogrammed from belief in a bridge. A deprogrammed atheist is a Knower of God.
CK: So now you're back to pretending that atheism is a religion. It's not.
Atheists, by definition, are not programmed. They are open to assessing and evaluating anything, provided it is supported by evidence and reasoning.
The "God" you think you "Know" is a fabrication of your own desires.
M: Moonbeam by definition is God. Now please pay more attention. A pig is a bird. Atheists are programmed. Webster if full of shit.
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M: I am just such an atheist.
Of course you are.
M: Hehehe, Most definitely.
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The question, again, is, could there be a state, one I call oneness, in which one knows the real meaning of God, one for which there may be electrical evidence of in brain scans, or one that releases this or that chemical, but which can be know as an experience only by having it?
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Could there be such a state? Sure, show me the evidence.
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Better yet, I will give you it in the form of a story, the first in the Wisdom of the Idiots, but when I finish this.
CK: I'm not going to take your word for it, nor the word of any other religious/mystic types, none of whom can seem to agree on what this alleged "state" even is.
M: I told you that you fear being deceived. What you seem not to notice is that I am not trying to prove anything. Truth can't be given away. I am trying to be sure that if there is anything in you that hungers or is genuinely curious, that I will have done all I can to help. I try to do what I can to combat self deception and the deceived deceiving others. I know you are afraid. I know something about the pain of dying to belief.
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CK: Again, another mischaracterization. Most atheists do not ever claim to be "free from logical error". They are open to reassessing their views based on emergent evidence and reasoning.
M: I've noticed.
Then why did you make your previous comment?
M: As always. The assumption that one has the tools and data to reason properly.
But without those assumptions, you may ask what there is. Without those assumptions there is humility and a disinclination to believe in ones poor judgment.
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M: No I told you what you need and instead of thinking about it you tried to turn it back on me. You, in your arrogance simply spit on the advise.
CK: Actually, I did think about it. And I quickly realized that it was self-contradictory.
I didn't spit on the advice. It spit on itself, by decrying arrogance while at the same time engaging in perhaps the greatest form of arrogance possible.
M: Yes you came instantly to the assumptions you hold that it is me and not you who is arrogant. That's fine by me. What I do is study self deception. I work on deprogramming. I arrogantly alerted you to the fact that you are arrogant in your opinion. Hehe It's not everybody who is so lucky. You realize, I hope, how special you are to have gotten my attention? If I ask you to thing about something realize that I mean thing not grab all the assumptions you can get. You will always find what you are looking for. Take in. Step out of your normal habits. Consider from a different attitude.
M: I told you that you lack humility and you say I am arrogant to tell you.
CK: You told me I lack humility while expressing a profound lack of humility.
Advice that the advice-taker cannot follow himself is not likely to be of any great value, much less "truth".
M: Anybody who confronts another with his arrogance will be accused of it whether it is there or not. This is my arrogant opinion. The difference between us I think, on this matter is that I am arrogant and know it and you do not. The truth is kind of arrogant. It goes on being true regardless of what anybody thinks.
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M: Then it should apply because both are religious.
CK: You've just confirmed that you do not understand atheism.
M: No I just confronted one of your assumptions that atheism is not a matter of faith and left it up to your intelligence to see what I actually said. I did not say that atheism is a faith that there are no gods. I said that atheism has faith that where there is no evidence of gods it makes sense not to believe in them. My point is that all the evidence that the religious try to supply about gods is their assumptions that gods have an existence that can be demonstrated with scientific evidence when the evidence for the existence of Truth and it's million other names is not to be had by belief or disbelief, by scientific evidence. It can only be had as the result of a transformation of consciousness, the acquisition of a state and that only by this inner journey is the truth to be found.
Where we are now is that instead of the question, does God exist, which can never be proved or disproved, we have a new question. Is there a state of consciousness that if one experiences it, all these things become clear. Is it possible that anybody can have God knowledge by means of an inner experience and is there a body of people who have experienced that state that know how to guide others? Do the millions of fingers, the millions of bridges point and lead to something real. One can only know by looking and walking. Nobody will who thinks he has already arrived. That's it.
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M: The problem is comes when you are what you describe and think you are not.
CK: A perfect description of what you said prior about people who think they "know" about gods.
M: I don't know what I said earlier that you refer to but hope what I just said helps.
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M: Certainty accompanied by the absence of self knowledge is the issue for me.
But, as we've already established, you only have an "issue" with other people's certainty.
Yours is not to be questioned.
Funny how it always works out that way.
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It's not funny. It makes perfect sense. You have an need to see things this way. You are in attack and defend mode instead of listening. When I stepped into the primate lab a thousand monkeys threw shit, not knowing I came from PETA. I'm quite used to it.
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