Saw this question on r/atheism today.

[Doc Savage Fan]

^^ Exactly - when you have religious nutsos going around shooting people and bombing abortion clinics, and suicide bombing in the middle east (or flying an airplane into the WTC), then it's pretty easy to see why atheists are getting more than fed up with their behavior.

This is a very curious statement. Is it logical to extrapolate from these "nutso" incidents to form and justify one's opinions on a much broader basis? Do you not think that a vast majority of non-nutso religious people are also fed up with this kind of behavior?

 

[Aikouka]

Please tell me something...if athiests really don't give a shit why are there so many in this thread voicing their "lack of belief" and ridiculing others for theirs?

It's not even just this thread. Personally, I'm tired of seeing stupid posts on social media sites that are filled with ignorance by religious folk that I know. What annoys me more about it is that they love posting image memes with questions, but they don't want to actually get an answer... they just want to try and push their own beliefs onto everyone that they know.

I recall when someone posted an image that said something along the lines of... "Why is it that if we found a single-cell organism on Mars, that scientists would exclaim that we have found extraterrestrial life when a human fetus isn't?" I reached back to my days of high school biology, and I explained to them the rules of something being considered as "living." However, they didn't want to hear an actual answer. All I received back was the usual, parroted Biblical response of, "that's not what it says in The Bible."

If you don't want an answer, then don't pose a question!

I saw another image recently that was something like... "You get punished for destroying the unborn children of some endangered animal, but it's okay to abort a human child." (The image was actually specific on the animal, but I can't remember which.) I was rather tempted to post a response, "Well, when humans become endangered, then it will most likely become illegal to terminate human life as well, but seeing as how there are about 7 billion of us, that doesn't seem likely."

I'll admit that I'm actually somewhat afraid to post anti-religious comments on social media. So many of the people that I know are religious that I get the feeling that it won't be accepted, and I'll end up shunned.

 

[ichy]

Good thing most of us don't do that, as discussed several times in this thread already.

At any rate, an atheist who claims to know that gods don't exist isn't any more foolish than a theist who claims to know that they do -- and has the added advantage of evidence and logic being on his side.

I agree. I'm on your side here.

 

[LunarRay]

See what I mean about most pro-religion arguments being weak? Vague mumbo-jumbo about the Holy Spirit is actually supposed to convince me of something?

IF you were in some place and say... felt a something clunk you on the head and looked about and saw nothing, could not determine how you were clunked by any rational means what would you think? Probably that something did the clunking but that something was beyond your ability to determine but that it must be nothing supernatural, Right?

Assume for the sake of this dialog that it WAS the HS trying to appeal to your sense of rationalization and failing... You'd not ever know this. But, some might... Some might proclaim the event to be a miracle and quick like a bunny loose every bit of ego close mindedness in favor of what to those people is a sure sign of God's existence... You'd laugh and point at the irrational behavior you witness but I suspect somewhere deep in the mire of your own rationalization would be sown the seed of doubt of your own position... You'll overwhelm that, no doubt, because your faith is strong as you look about and see nothing but nature unfold before you and never once wondering about what may exist beyond all that... You'll know that answer when you see it.... and then perhaps you'll know.

 

[Juddog]

This is a very curious statement. Is it logical to extrapolate from these "nutso" incidents to form and justify one's opinions on a much broader basis? Do you not think that a vast majority of non-nutso religious people are also fed up with this kind of behavior?

Yes - the non-extremist religious people are also getting sick of the behavior, that was shown when millions of Muslims got a bad rep when one group of them decided to fly two planes into the WTC, and Christians getting mad at the Westboro Baptist church, Iraqi's getting tired of suicide bombers every few days, etc.. The list goes on and on.

The extremists are the bad apples, but the discussion on whether religion is rooted in illogical behavior needs to be brought into the open for public discourse. That is why this thread, and others like it, are immensely useful for people on the fence about religion. Religion, by nature, is irrational - it's telling people to put faith in something that has no basis in fact.

Note that I am not saying that religion is entirely bad - it obviously has it's positives, such as creating close-knit communities, opening food pantries for the poor, etc., but those things can be accomplished just as easily by bringing discussion of more modern form of morality into the public eye and teaching non-religious based morality to children as they go to school, along with critical thinking.

 

[Moonbeam]

Good thing most of us don't do that, as discussed several times in this thread already.

At any rate, an atheist who claims to know that gods don't exist isn't any more foolish than a theist who claims to know that they do -- and has the added advantage of evidence and logic being on his side.

Rubbish. An atheist has on his side only his assumptions that he would know logic and evidence when he sees it. He knows nothing of the conscious state in which the existence of God is obvious. An Atheist like an uninformed believer, simply believes in his own opinion. The uninformed religious believer is closer to the actual reality.

What an atheist sees is the foolish logic of believers who try to use logic to explain and justify what they believe. The skill and accuracy with which they do this fosters the arrogance that they themselves are free from logical error and that thus they arrive at the real truth. But the real truth can't be entered by logic and arrogance, but by humility, grace, and self surrender. It is the attitude of the observer, the place he stands when he looks that makes the difference between whether one sees petals and stems or the rose.

The outward and superficial will never comprehend the inner journey.

Behind belief we can see motivation. Perhaps a believer fears death or fears going to hell. He will resist the loss of belief that protects him from these things.

The non-believer may fear deception and the fear of ridicule at being accused of being naive. He will not want to let go of his non-belief opinion having gained such pride in his attainment. The Knower, well, he lives in a dimension we can't see. From him we can get only what we can take.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

It's not even just this thread. Personally, I'm tired of seeing stupid posts on social media sites that are filled with ignorance by religious folk that I know. What annoys me more about it is that they love posting image memes with questions, but they don't want to actually get an answer... they just want to try and push their own beliefs onto everyone that they know.

I recall when someone posted an image that said something along the lines of... "Why is it that if we found a single-cell organism on Mars, that scientists would exclaim that we have found extraterrestrial life when a human fetus isn't?" I reached back to my days of high school biology, and I explained to them the rules of something being considered as "living." However, they didn't want to hear an actual answer. All I received back was the usual, parroted Biblical response of, "that's not what it says in The Bible."

If you don't want an answer, then don't pose a question!

I saw another image recently that was something like... "You get punished for destroying the unborn children of some endangered animal, but it's okay to abort a human child." (The image was actually specific on the animal, but I can't remember which.) I was rather tempted to post a response, "Well, when humans become endangered, then it will most likely become illegal to terminate human life as well, but seeing as how there are about 7 billion of us, that doesn't seem likely."

I'll admit that I'm actually somewhat afraid to post anti-religious comments on social media. So many of the people that I know are religious that I get the feeling that it won't be accepted, and I'll end up shunned.

I hear you. But you must know that the door swings both ways...many religious people are shunned for their beliefs as well.

I somehow doubt much will change...human beings in general are a perverse lot...for some reason they hold dear their intolerance of other people who are different from themselves in some way.

 

[LunarRay]

I saw another image recently that was something like... "You get punished for destroying the unborn children of some endangered animal, but it's okay to abort a human child." (The image was actually specific on the animal, but I can't remember which.) I was rather tempted to post a response, "Well, when humans become endangered, then it will most likely become illegal to terminate human life as well, but seeing as how there are about 7 billion of us, that doesn't seem likely."

I'll admit that I'm actually somewhat afraid to post anti-religious comments on social media. So many of the people that I know are religious that I get the feeling that it won't be accepted, and I'll end up shunned.

Those that would cast their pearls before swine ought to expect what they get. You should feel free to post your belief...
Religion and God and all that entails or the absence of it all ought to be only between the person and their belief... It ought not be forced upon any other person in any manner... it is personal... like Lawrence v Texas....

We live in the US where folks wear their religion on their sleeve for a myriad of reasons... none of those reasons are appropriate.

Abortion is a women's issue. Her life course is not that of a male. There ought to be some rational natural law regarding that process but a law developed by women for women based on a reasonable interpretation of human life and when it begins and not some Saint Jeeves said scenario.

 

[Moonbeam]

I hear you. But you must know that the door swings both ways...many religious people are shunned for their beliefs as well.

I somehow doubt much will change...human beings in general are a perverse lot...for some reason they hold dear their intolerance of other people who are different from themselves in some way.

We are all the same. And you know in whose image we were made. Chicken or egg, chicken or egg. At 20,000 feet the eagle doesn't care.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

Rubbish.

Ah, you still sound angry.

It will be okay.

An atheist has on his side only his assumptions that he would know logic and evidence when he sees it.

An atheist has this to a greater degree than people who have, either consciously or unconsciously, decided to toss away logic and insistence on evidence.

Are there limits to the potential here? Of course. But in truth, not very many "assumptions" are required. Being an atheist is a default state, it's what everyone is born with before they are programmed. There are no more "assumptions" in not believing in gods than in not believing in invisible pink unicorns.

He knows nothing of the conscious state in which the existence of God is obvious.

On the contrary. Many atheists understand these "conscious states" full well, because many atheists are deprogrammed theists.

Anything can be made to seem "obvious" given the right indoctrination. The value and benefit of flying airplanes into skyscrapers was "obvious" to the 9/11 hijackers. But "obvious" doesn't always mean "true".

An Atheist like an uninformed believer, simply believes in his own opinion.

False, assuming again we are talking about a weak atheist such as myself. This individual doesn't "believe" in anything, but rather chooses to not believe in that for which there is no evidence.

My "opinion" that there are no gods is exactly the same as the "opinion" that I'm guessing everyone has here that monkeys do not flap their arms and fly to the moon. Both are opinions based on the best available evidence.

What an atheist sees is the foolish logic of believers who try to use logic to explain and justify what they believe.

You're either deliberately misrepresenting atheism here, or you don't actually understand very much about it.

The skill and accuracy with which they do this fosters the arrogance that they themselves are free from logical error and that thus they arrive at the real truth.

Again, another mischaracterization. Most atheists do not ever claim to be "free from logical error". They are open to reassessing their views based on emergent evidence and reasoning.

And that's as good as it gets for human beings.

But the real truth can't be entered by logic and arrogance, but by humility, grace, and self surrender.

You just claimed to have the formula for finding "real truth" in the same breath that called for "humility" and denigrated "arrogance".

It's self-parodying.

Perhaps a believer fears death or fears going to hell. He will resist the loss of belief that protects him from these things.

I've always found it interesting that, generally speaking, the ones who claim to be most sure that they'll be reunited with God and Jesus and their dead loved ones after they die are the ones most afraid of death.

The non-believer may fear deception and the fear of ridicule at being accused of being naive.

I've never met a non-believer with any of these fears, so I find your claim unconvincing.

He will not want to let go of his non-belief opinion having gained such pride in his attainment.

Again, a mischaracterization, a claim of belief I have not witnessed in other atheists.

That does, however, describe religious people quite well.

The Knower, well, he lives in a dimension we can't see. From him we can get only what we can take.

Most "knowers" know only what they've been told to know, or what they imagine they've figured out themselves. But while personal intuition has value, it is not necessarily truth. The world is full of crazy people who claim to have figured everything out.

Give me the man who honestly says "I don't know" over the man who deceives himself into thinking he "knows" something based on nothing, any day.

 

[Retro Rob]

Note that I am not saying that religion is entirely bad - it obviously has it's positives, such as creating close-knit communities, opening food pantries for the poor, etc., but those things can be accomplished just as easily by bringing discussion of more modern form of morality into the public eye and teaching non-religious based morality to children as they go to school, along with critical thinking.

There's more to religion than just social movements, well, there should be. I personally don't need religion for these things -- we can do them quite fine on our own.

In fact, I will go on out and say this is how they reel people in. If anything, religion should be about Bible education, and educating others about it. Not to say the social aspects should be done away with, but they should fall second-place.

What makes me feel uncomfortable is the party atmosphere in some Churches.. the dancing, loud singing -- the having of way too much fun without people learning enough. I can rent hall for that all stuff. That should not be going on in a Chruch.

If they were being educated properly in their Church, there would be no opponents of science in religion. Outside of miracles, the Bible works in harmony with current scienctific understanding from my study of it.

I will say we're living in a time of Biblcal ignorance as well. I don't know exactly how many 30-something's love to critisize the Bible, yet upon asking some of them why they do, they've yet to pick it up and really read it. They "check facts" on the internet, yet, how can they really know if someone's lying to them if they don't read it?

I count myself fortunate to have had a balance Biblical upbringing where I learned the Bible, appreciate some aspects of scientific discovery, and use both the Bible and science to appreciate life.

I just wish most guys born in our generation would take a look at the book for themselves and formulate their own opinion instead of listening to so-called "facts" on the web all the time. Yet, I blame religion whole-heartedly for grossly misrepresenting the book and what's in it.

 

[Darwin333]

Interesting. Link?

From 800-1100AD Islam, and specifically Baghdad, was the intellectual center of the world. They made huge discoveries and advancements in almost every field. Then like someone flipping a switch that went away never to return to this day. It can be traced back to two assholes.

I don't have any direct links on me but I do have one of Neil DeGrasse Tyson explaining it much better than I can. From there I am sure you can find the relevant backup.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDAT98eEN5Q

(its only 10 minutes and worth watching the entire thing but you can skip to around 6 minutes if you have ADD)

 

[Darwin333]

It's not a "belief"...didn't you get the memo? Even though atheists believe that God doesn't exist...it's not a belief. Yes, I know this may be confusing to some...but trust me...I know what I'm talking about! :biggrin:

What is the word for believing there is no Santa Clause?

 

[randomrogue]

You can turn off annoying friends in facebook. Even partially. I have a friend who's from Africa and everyday she posts 1-2 extremely religious things with bible quotes and praise jesus all over the place. In real life she doesn't force her religion down my throat or even mention it but on facebook go to your friend's list, to the person in question, hover over "friends", go to settings, turn off updates that bother you.

 

[randomrogue]

If they were being educated properly in their Church, there would be no opponents of science in religion. Outside of miracles, the Bible works in harmony with current scienctific understanding from my study of it.

Evolution is an issue that you're personally at odds with. Keep that in mind.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

Superb video, thanks Darwin.

 

[klinc]

Do people still use Facebook? I thought its only for perverts and stalkers

 

[spittledip]

All affluent societies have usually had a decline in Religion. Is it due to distraction or is it that they had less need for Hope? I'm gonna go with the latter.

The wealth provides opportunity for greater distraction. I would agree with you that they also had less need for hope as well, but that again is due to having wealth to depend on. The distraction part is what helps you push away any notion for needs outside of what your wealth can provide.

 

[Retro Rob]

Evolution is an issue that you're personally at odds with. Keep that in mind.

Doesn't bother me any. Keep that in mind.

 

[FelixDeCat]

My apologies for the insinuation...it's become clear that aren't a parody poster.

I shouldn't let your posts irritate me...there's a hint of arrogance that rubs me the wrong way. Please accept my apologies for this as well.

Im always open to constructive criticism. If something bothers you, let me know. Im just used to dealing with hostility towards religion, especially on Youtube where trolls are a dime a dozen.

When I express self confidence in my words sometimes they can rub people the wrong way especially when I communicate with others using their own manner of expression, which unfortunately these days includes less than civil means of doing so.

 

[spittledip]

I find it even odder that so many people talk about God being existent with such certainty.

One group hears extraordinary claims and requires extraordinary proof to back up said claims before they blindly believe/follow said claims.

One group hears extraordinary claims and blindly believes and follows said claims with absolutely no proof. The best answer anyone can give as to why is because they were programmed to believe in it from a very young age but unlike other fables children believe this one was reinforced into adulthood.



And you find US odd????

You know, it is funny, but the proofs tend to come after the belief. At least that is how it has been for everyone I know who has had "proofs". This is not always how it is obviously. Some see the proofs and then believe. The proofs I have experienced have been weak at best, but I guess I am not interested in proofs- that is more in line with what people of your mindset might demand. However, the proofs my wife has experienced as well as some of her friends- those are very strong.

 

[LunarRay]

What is the word for believing there is no Santa Clause?

Humbugatry? hehehehe Maybe Krampus knows.

 

[Phanuel]

There's more to religion than just social movements, well, there should be. I personally don't need religion for these things -- we can do them quite fine on our own.

In fact, I will go on out and say this is how they reel people in. If anything, religion should be about Bible education, and educating others about it. Not to say the social aspects should be done away with, but they should fall second-place.

What makes me feel uncomfortable is the party atmosphere in some Churches.. the dancing, loud singing -- the having of way too much fun without people learning enough. I can rent hall for that all stuff. That should not be going on in a Chruch.

If they were being educated properly in their Church, there would be no opponents of science in religion. Outside of miracles, the Bible works in harmony with current scienctific understanding from my study of it.

I will say we're living in a time of Biblcal ignorance as well. I don't know exactly how many 30-something's love to critisize the Bible, yet upon asking some of them why they do, they've yet to pick it up and really read it. They "check facts" on the internet, yet, how can they really know if someone's lying to them if they don't read it?

I count myself fortunate to have had a balance Biblical upbringing where I learned the Bible, appreciate some aspects of scientific discovery, and use both the Bible and science to appreciate life.

I just wish most guys born in our generation would take a look at the book for themselves and formulate their own opinion instead of listening to so-called "facts" on the web all the time. Yet, I blame religion whole-heartedly for grossly misrepresenting the book and what's in it.

What facts are present in the Bible? It's full of parables and other such 'life lessons' but contains little or no actual history or facts.

The bible does not contribute to rational or skeptical thinking in any way, shape, or form. I've read it, and I constantly consult the entertaining version at http://thebrickbible.com/ but I fail to see how any of this is even a properly authored or researched history lesson.

I have morals, and they have nothing to do with bible teachings but instead with our basic human wiring such as empathy and emotions driving my actions.

I'm sorry, if we both agreed tomorrow to not spread our 'beliefs' to anyone including our children, do you think religion would last beyond 1 or 2 generations? I don't.

 

[FelixDeCat]

Religion is practiced in churches where people of faith gather IN PERSON to worship God. It is irrational to hate religion.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally Posted by randomrogue
Evolution is an issue that you're personally at odds with. Keep that in mind.

Doesn't bother me any. Keep that in mind.

Do you mean you're not at odds with evolution? Not sure what you're actually meaning by your comment.

I infer you are saying, "... that your being at odds with evolution does not bother you."