Saw this question on r/atheism today.

[zsdersw]

We can't repeat them. We have to rely on reliable testimony.

As far as the eye-witnesses are concerned that saw these things, it depends if they're credible, or if they exaggerated them, or outright lied.

As far as I've researched, all I mainly here is that they violate natural laws so people wont believe them.

IMO, with some things, the evidence could have been destroyed or lost. We examine the creditbility of the writes/eye-witnesses, and decide if they're believable or not.

Can't be more clear than that.

So any miracles/supernatural stuff you do believe in you believe in because of faith, not evidence... which is what we originally said in the first place.

 

[FelixDeCat]

How about anyone who quotes the bible? Someone who interprets the bible as fact?

I just see this as some kind of religious pathology.

The Bible is fact. So is your trolling.

No, some guy who lived decades after Jesus died claimed that he said that, and then wrote it down, and some other guys who also never knew Jesus wrote down some similar claims, and then they were passed around, and copied, and miscopied, and translated, and mistranslated, and then put into a big book that a bunch of powerful people realized they could use to control all of the other people through a combination of fear, guilt, false hope and intimidation.

And that brainwashing based on a book of dubious origins and with absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support it, was passed down from generation to generation, eventually brainwashing your parents or other authority figures you trust into believing it, and then they programmed you.

Over the last TWO THOUSAND years much in the Bible has been validated. Your brainwashing of hate for God is quite evident however.

 

[FelixDeCat]

So any miracles/supernatural stuff you do believe in you believe in because of faith, not evidence... which is what we originally said in the first place.

Jesus turned water into wine. There have also been many documented modern day miracles. Ive personally witnessed some. Others are documented to prove the authenticity of saints chosen by the Catholic Church.

But you keep making stuff up. Its making you look real smart.

 

[FelixDeCat]

By the way, you never answered my direct question to you earlier.

How do you determine which portions of the Bible were real, actual events, versus which are simply parables?

The Old Testament would seem to contain more parables. The New Testament is the account of Jesus and the acts of his apostles. The accounts were real.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

Over the last TWO THOUSAND years much in the Bible has been validated. Your brainwashing of hate for God is quite evident however.

It's not possible to hate things that don't exist.

I realize that "I know you are but what am I, neener neener" is about all that Christians have at their disposal when it comes to debating religion, but sorry, my positions are based on evidence and reason, not on a book someone handed to me and said "THIS IS TRUTH". So, no, I am not brainwashed. You are.

And if "so much" in the bible has been validated over the last 2,000 years, how about you provide a list of such, without using astrologer tricks like generous interpretations of words to mean what you want them to, or claiming credit for predicting things that are so generic that they couldn't not come true.

But you won't. You won't provide that list. You'll ignore this and respond with more bullshit about how I hate your magic sky daddy and that you know the bible is "fact" and so forth.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

Jesus turned water into wine.

No, some guy who lived decades after Jesus died claimed that he turned water into wine, and then wrote it down, and some other guys who also never knew Jesus wrote down some similar claims, and then they were passed around, and copied, and miscopied, and translated, and mistranslated, and then put into a big book that a bunch of powerful people realized they could use to control all of the other people through a combination of fear, guilt, false hope and intimidation.

And that brainwashing based on a book of dubious origins and with absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support it, was passed down from generation to generation, eventually brainwashing your parents or other authority figures you trust into believing it, and then they programmed you.

 

[Retro Rob]

So any miracles/supernatural stuff you do believe in you believe in because of faith, not evidence... which is what we originally said in the first place.

Faith based on evidence, evidence that what's in there in true thus far, so I don't have reason to disbelieve.

There's a difference in the silly and false comparison you're trying to make between blind faith, and faith based on evidence.

 

[zsdersw]

Faith based on evidence, evidence that what's in there in true thus far, so I don't have reason to disbelieve.

There's a difference in the silly and false comparison you're trying to make between blind faith, and faith based on evidence.

There is no such evidence.

 

[Retro Rob]

There is no such evidence.

Your opinion.

Again, all specualtion, opinion, no facts coming from you all.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

What evidence in any of those resources is there for miracles and other supernatural claims?

The Babylonian Talmud indicates that Jesus was "hanged" for practicing sorcery and enticing Israel to apostasy.

Josephus was a non-Christian first century historian who wrote the Testimonium Flavianum around 93–94 AD (using Agapius translation):

Similarly Josephus the Hebrew. For he says in the treatises that he has written on the governance of the Jews: ‘At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good, and (He) was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned Him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that He had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that He was alive; accordingly, He was perhaps the Messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.

Josephus also interestingly noted the stoning of James (brother of Jesus):

And now Caesar, upon hearing the death of Festus, sent Albinus into Judea, as procurator. But the king deprived Joseph of the high priesthood, and bestowed the succession to that dignity on the son of Ananus, who was also himself called Ananus... Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned.

Pliny the Younger
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pliny_the_Younger_on_Christians

Tacitus (Roman Historian) - Annals written 116 AD

Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind.

To summarize, when looking at non-Christian historical accounts we see that Jesus was regarded as wise, that we was a powerful and revered teacher, that he performed "sorcery", that he was crucified by Pontius Pilate on the eve of Passover with possible references to the resurrection by both Tacitus and Josephus, that Jesus' followers believed He was the Christ (Messiah), and that Christians worshipped Jesus as God.

 

[zsdersw]

Again, all specualtion, opinion, no facts coming from you all.

I'm glad you can talk about yourself so openly.

 

[FelixDeCat]

Your opinion.

Again, all specualtion, opinion, no facts coming from you all.

'xactly.

A few of them are now even trolling. I have better things to do today than coddle trolls for now. :whiste:

 

[Moonbeam]

To the believer, the Torah, Bible, Koran or whatever IS the Authority. To them their Authority is axiomatic! No other proof or evidence is needed, well, perhaps to those who assign Infallibility to a leader (past or present) who defines their reference material to be the Authority nothing else is needed.

The non believer has no authority to speak of other than the expert opinion, objective testing and other empirically derived evidence that may conflict with the believer's interpretation of the authority (or agreement among the believers as to what the authority should be interpreted to mean).

From the viewpoint of either how can the other ever agree on anything that conflicts? To do so places the one into the same category as the other... One loses faith or the other gains faith...

I don't see anything happening other than an attempt to convert the other into belief consistent with their view to what is authoritative...

I remember reading a story about two men debating outside a Mosque the fineries of why and whether or not shoes should be removed before entering. While they debated a man with on shoes entered the Mosque and received that for which he had come.

In the land of the cargo cult debates rage as to whether Gods carriage is pushed or pulled through the sky with some villages claiming no such carriage exists. I know because I know an ethnographer who flew there to gather such data. He lived to report to me these findings because, while in the land of the blind the one eyed man is king, in the land of the flightless the aeronautical engineer is an apostate.

When Mulla Nasrudin found a parrot that had escaped from a cage, a bird he had never seen or imagined, he trimmed it's beak and painted it brown so it would look more like a proper falcon.

Earlier in the thread I asked DSF why folk what others to see the log in their eye but not the one in their own. I think you may have answered my question. So we will need to consider this need to convert and what that's all about. But it may prove a lonely study because while a love of debate seems to come natural, this business of deeper understanding doesn't seem to appeal. It's almost as if folk are magnetized by what they feel and real thinking goes right out the window.

 

[FelixDeCat]

It's not possible to hate things that don't exist.

I realize that "I know you are but what am I, neener neener" is about all that Christians have at their disposal when it comes to debating religion, but sorry, my positions are based on evidence and reason, not on a book someone handed to me and said "THIS IS TRUTH". So, no, I am not brainwashed. You are.

And if "so much" in the bible has been validated over the last 2,000 years, how about you provide a list of such, without using astrologer tricks like generous interpretations of words to mean what you want them to, or claiming credit for predicting things that are so generic that they couldn't not come true.

But you won't. You won't provide that list. You'll ignore this and respond with more bullshit about how I hate your magic sky daddy and that you know the bible is "fact" and so forth.

With all this hate in your post for Christians and the Bible, why bother? Im not going through the trouble of finding this for you and you will dismiss whatever I post because you are a hatemonger. Thats the old game you hatemongers play. :|

 

[zsdersw]

To summarize, when looking at non-Christian historical accounts we see that Jesus was regarded as wise, that we was a powerful and revered teacher, that he performed "sorcery", that he was crucified by Pontius Pilate on the eve of Passover with possible references to the resurrection by both Tacitus and Josephus, that Jesus' followers believed He was the Christ (Messiah), and that Christians worshipped Jesus as God.

How is that evidence of miracles and the supernatural things claimed in the Bible?

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

How is that evidence of miracles and the supernatural things claimed in the Bible?

How do you expect non-Christians to frame such things other than to reference them as sorcery and mischievous superstitions?

 

[randomrogue]

The Bible is fact. So is your trolling.

Please show me how the immaculate conception is fact. It's the first page in the bible.

 

[Retro Rob]

With all this hate in your post for Christians and the Bible, why bother? Im not going through the trouble of finding this for you and you will dismiss whatever I post because you are a hatemonger. Thats the old game you hatemongers play. :|

Yep, everytime someone brings something to the table, it's a "trick" or "generous interpretation", or "Forgery" or [insert statement of denial here].. all done under the false premise of what's in there can't be true becasue I said it isn't, while not offering one shred of solid evidence to back the claim that is absent of speculation.

 

[Retro Rob]

How do you expect non-Christians to frame such things other than to reference them as sorcery and mischievous superstitions?

Your research was very applealing to me, however, you're dealing with people that can't see past their noses -- they want to "see" said miracles or they'd never believe them.

They've been conditioned this way.

We can't rewind the clock - can't go back in time. So they ignore evidence, valid and credible testimony, and deny facts presented by anyone that descibes events that they've already written off as BS.

If I were you, I'd use my time more wisely on those who would rather learn something.

 

[sandorski]

Your research was very applealing to me, however, you're dealing with people that can't see past their noses -- they want to "see" said miracles or they'd never believe them.

They've been conditioned this way.

We can't rewind the clock - can't go back in time. So they ignore evidence, valid and credible testimony, and deny facts presented by anyone that descibes events that they've already written off as BS.

If I were you, I'd use my time more wisely on those who would rather learn something.

Do you accept Joseph Smith's claims?

 

[Charles Kozierok]

With all this hate in your post for Christians and the Bible, why bother? Im not going through the trouble of finding this for you and you will dismiss whatever I post because you are a hatemonger. Thats the old game you hatemongers play. :|

Just as predicted.

No, you're not going to find me the list of these supposed things in the bible that have been validated over the last 2,000 years because they don't exist. At best, it's a list of vague circumstances that brainwashed rubes like yourself decide match up with vague comments in the bible.

The bible is a book of myths. That's the truth.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Your research was very applealing to me, however, you're dealing with people that can't see past their noses -- they want to "see" said miracles or they'd never believe them.

They've been conditioned this way.

We can't rewind the clock - can't go back in time. So they ignore evidence, valid and credible testimony, and deny facts presented by anyone that descibes events that they've already written off as BS.

If I were you, I'd use my time more wisely on those who would rather learn something.

I can't see past my own nose...much less criticize them (or you) for the same. However, I do enjoy these discussions and don't view them as a waste of time. I hope that perhaps one person will learn something...hopefully it is me.

 

[Retro Rob]

I can't see past my own nose...much less criticize them (or you) for the same. However, I do enjoy these discussions and don't view them as a waste of time. I hope that perhaps one person will learn something...hopefully it is me.

I have been put in my place!

 

[randomrogue]

Yep, everytime someone brings something to the table, it's a "trick" or "generous interpretation", or "Forgery" or [insert statement of denial here].. all done under the false premise of what's in there can't be true becasue I said it isn't, while not offering one shred of solid evidence to back the claim that is absent of speculation.

Once again. Please show me how the immaculate conception is fact.

 

[Juddog]

So all that I've seen so far in this thread is proof that the original image was correct.

Their entire argument so far has been "what's in this book is truth", responded to with "where is proof that what is in the book is true?", and they respond "the evidence is in the book itself".

So basically the proof that the book is true is in the book that is... true. At least, according to the people that believe the book is true.

Sigh.