Saw a TV special on a North Hollywood shootout

[KK]

Originally posted by: KLin

Originally posted by: bradruth

Originally posted by: Brackis
What I don't understand is why they simply didn't shoot the robbers in the head where they had no armor. I have shot handguns and realize hitting a a moving watermelon is no easy task at 50-100 yards, but half a dozen cops going thru a couple of magazines a piece is due to render the robber incapictated with a hit to the head region on at least one lucky pull of the trigger from a 9mm Beretta.

Hit percentages in shootouts average out to 17%. Now, take into account that most shootouts occur within 6 feet. Apply those odds to a long-distance attempt at a headshot with a handgun, keeping in mind the intense stress that one would feel in that situation.

Not to mention that in a residential area with many civilians around, firing wildly isn't an option when you have to take into account what lies BEHIND your target.

I couldn't have said it better. This isn't counter-strike people. If you die, that's it.

Unless you believe in the after-life. 😛 😀

 

[KLin]

Originally posted by: KK

Originally posted by: KLin

Originally posted by: bradruth

Originally posted by: Brackis
What I don't understand is why they simply didn't shoot the robbers in the head where they had no armor. I have shot handguns and realize hitting a a moving watermelon is no easy task at 50-100 yards, but half a dozen cops going thru a couple of magazines a piece is due to render the robber incapictated with a hit to the head region on at least one lucky pull of the trigger from a 9mm Beretta.

Hit percentages in shootouts average out to 17%. Now, take into account that most shootouts occur within 6 feet. Apply those odds to a long-distance attempt at a headshot with a handgun, keeping in mind the intense stress that one would feel in that situation.

Not to mention that in a residential area with many civilians around, firing wildly isn't an option when you have to take into account what lies BEHIND your target.

I couldn't have said it better. This isn't counter-strike people. If you die, that's it.

Unless you believe in the after-life. 😛 😀

Yea I meant that's it for life on earth 😉

 

[Brackis]

Originally posted by: bradruth

Originally posted by: Brackis

Originally posted by: bradruth

Originally posted by: Brackis
What I don't understand is why they simply didn't shoot the robbers in the head where they had no armor. I have shot handguns and realize hitting a a moving watermelon is no easy task at 50-100 yards, but half a dozen cops going thru a couple of magazines a piece is due to render the robber incapictated with a hit to the head region on at least one lucky pull of the trigger from a 9mm Beretta.

Hit percentages in shootouts average out to 17%. Now, take into account that most shootouts occur within 6 feet. Apply those odds to a long-distance attempt at a headshot with a handgun, keeping in mind the intense stress that one would feel in that situation.

Not to mention that in a residential area with many civilians around, firing wildly isn't an option when you have to take into account what lies BEHIND your target.

I realize that if this were in a neighborhood that you would never do such a thing, but at one point the robbers were in front of a large windowless white building, one driving a car and the other firing from behind the car. Had 4 officers simply empty a magazine a piece in that scenario while aiming in the upper portion of the robber's body, one bullet would more than likely avoid the armored areas of the assailants body.

Yeah, that's not how the real world works.

Actually, I would consider it quite pragmatic myself. A bullet hitting kevlar body armor still packs quite a punch, and any shot that misses the vest from the neck on up is going to deal very lethal penetration. With multiple cops, each at a different position, multiple cops will be away from the robber's intended target and have an opportunity to get a handful of shots off.

 

[bradruth]

Originally posted by: Brackis
Actually, I would consider it quite pragmatic myself. A bullet hitting kevlar body armor still packs quite a punch, and any shot that misses the vest from the neck on up is going to deal very lethal penetration. With multiple cops, each at a different position, multiple cops will be away from the robber's intended target and have an opportunity to get a handful of shots off.

And how much law enforcement experience do you have?

 

[Anonemous]

didn't the families of those robbers file a wrongful death lawsuit as well since the police didn't call for an ambulance promptly or something?

 

[Brackis]

Originally posted by: bradruth

Originally posted by: Brackis
Actually, I would consider it quite pragmatic myself. A bullet hitting kevlar body armor still packs quite a punch, and any shot that misses the vest from the neck on up is going to deal very lethal penetration. With multiple cops, each at a different position, multiple cops will be away from the robber's intended target and have an opportunity to get a handful of shots off.

And how much law enforcement experience do you have?

Zilch, I speak from experience shooting firearms and the half dozen times I have watched the tape of the crime. From 50-75 yards away I cannot hit a watermelon sized object on command, but if I were to spend an entire clip zeroing in on it at least one hit would be reasonable to expect. With a handful of officers at the scene, a single detrimental hit is not unreasonable to expect from 4 officers each shooting 1 clip of 10 9mm bullets.

 

[bradruth]

Originally posted by: Brackis
Zilch, I speak from experience shooting firearms and the half dozen times I have watched the tape of the crime. From 50-75 yards away I cannot hit a watermelon sized object on command, but if I were to spend an entire clip zeroing in on it at least one hit would be reasonable to expect. With a handful of officers at the scene, a single detrimental hit is not unreasonable to expect from 4 officers each shooting 1 clip of 10 9mm bullets.

Handgun experience aside, you cannot fully understand the complexities of a Police shootout. There are many other factors beside simply firing one's weapon.

 

[Brackis]

Originally posted by: bradruth

Originally posted by: Brackis
Zilch, I speak from experience shooting firearms and the half dozen times I have watched the tape of the crime. From 50-75 yards away I cannot hit a watermelon sized object on command, but if I were to spend an entire clip zeroing in on it at least one hit would be reasonable to expect. With a handful of officers at the scene, a single detrimental hit is not unreasonable to expect from 4 officers each shooting 1 clip of 10 9mm bullets.

Handgun experience aside, you cannot fully understand the complexities of a Police shootout. There are many other factors beside simply firing one's weapon.

From the video I have seen there appeared to be 6-10 police officers at the scene of the robbery while the robbers were shooting. Anyone with basic leadership skills could direct some to clear the area of civilians, and others to take down the shooters.
I have a good deal of respect for police officers in general, but when two men have high capacity, high ROF weapons and who shoot at anyone or anything, the first objective is to end their capacity to continue firing. For every "reckless" shot that an officer takes while aiming at a man who is in a parking lot in front of a bulding, there will be 10 shots that the robber takes which are more lethal and are intended for innocent victims. If, therfore, I am clear of the gunfire coming from the robber's AK, I will be expending every bullet in my possession to hit him while he fires at my fellow officers or civilians in the area.

 

[BuckNaked]

Originally posted by: Brackis

Originally posted by: bradruth

Originally posted by: Brackis
Actually, I would consider it quite pragmatic myself. A bullet hitting kevlar body armor still packs quite a punch, and any shot that misses the vest from the neck on up is going to deal very lethal penetration. With multiple cops, each at a different position, multiple cops will be away from the robber's intended target and have an opportunity to get a handful of shots off.

And how much law enforcement experience do you have?

Zilch, I speak from experience shooting firearms and the half dozen times I have watched the tape of the crime. From 50-75 yards away I cannot hit a watermelon sized object on command, but if I were to spend an entire clip zeroing in on it at least one hit would be reasonable to expect. With a handful of officers at the scene, a single detrimental hit is not unreasonable to expect from 4 officers each shooting 1 clip of 10 9mm bullets.

LOL... until you have had the experience of seeing how much your most basic motor skills go to sh!t in a high stress situation, with the tunnel vision, time compression and the most reptilian part of your brain telling you take cover until its over, I don't think you can quite say whats reasonable and unreasonable to expect from someone else in that situation... Let alone what is general departmental policy...

And no, I am not LEO....

 

[slick230]

bradruth, you have my respect for not telling these civilian know-it-alls to STFU by now. All of these people saying how THEY would have done things, how THEY have experience shooting targets at the range that DON'T shoot back, how THEY know about tactics... it makes me laugh.

:beer: for you and your bro's in blue (or black, or brown, whatever color uniform you guys wear 😀)

 

[BuckNaked]

Originally posted by: slick230
bradruth, you have my respect for not telling these civilian know-it-alls to STFU by now. All of these people saying how THEY would have done things, how THEY have experience shooting targets at the range that DON'T shoot back, how THEY know about tactics... it makes me laugh.

:beer: for you and your bro's in blue (or black, or brown, whatever color uniform you guys wear 😀)

:beer:

 

[Brackis]

Originally posted by: Buck_Naked

Originally posted by: Brackis

Originally posted by: bradruth

Originally posted by: Brackis
Actually, I would consider it quite pragmatic myself. A bullet hitting kevlar body armor still packs quite a punch, and any shot that misses the vest from the neck on up is going to deal very lethal penetration. With multiple cops, each at a different position, multiple cops will be away from the robber's intended target and have an opportunity to get a handful of shots off.

And how much law enforcement experience do you have?

Zilch, I speak from experience shooting firearms and the half dozen times I have watched the tape of the crime. From 50-75 yards away I cannot hit a watermelon sized object on command, but if I were to spend an entire clip zeroing in on it at least one hit would be reasonable to expect. With a handful of officers at the scene, a single detrimental hit is not unreasonable to expect from 4 officers each shooting 1 clip of 10 9mm bullets.

LOL... until you have had the experience of seeing how much your most basic motor skills go to sh!t in a high stress situation, with the tunnel vision, time compression and the most reptilian part of your brain telling you take cover until its over, I don't think you can quite say whats reasonable and unreasonable to expect from someone else in that situation... Let alone what is general departmental policy...

And no, I am not LEO....

Thus the reason why officers are paid and trained to do the job and not civilians with no experience in hgih stress situations with a lack of firearm experience. I don't understand why this discussion has transformed into a cops are > or < than you topic, the point is that 41 minutes to stop two men is an obsurdley long time and everyone involved is fortunate that no one was killed; it could have been handled more effeciently making use of the weapons and number of officers who initially responded.

 

[slick230]

Originally posted by: Brackis

Originally posted by: Buck_Naked

Originally posted by: Brackis

Originally posted by: bradruth

Originally posted by: Brackis
Actually, I would consider it quite pragmatic myself. A bullet hitting kevlar body armor still packs quite a punch, and any shot that misses the vest from the neck on up is going to deal very lethal penetration. With multiple cops, each at a different position, multiple cops will be away from the robber's intended target and have an opportunity to get a handful of shots off.

And how much law enforcement experience do you have?

Zilch, I speak from experience shooting firearms and the half dozen times I have watched the tape of the crime. From 50-75 yards away I cannot hit a watermelon sized object on command, but if I were to spend an entire clip zeroing in on it at least one hit would be reasonable to expect. With a handful of officers at the scene, a single detrimental hit is not unreasonable to expect from 4 officers each shooting 1 clip of 10 9mm bullets.

LOL... until you have had the experience of seeing how much your most basic motor skills go to sh!t in a high stress situation, with the tunnel vision, time compression and the most reptilian part of your brain telling you take cover until its over, I don't think you can quite say whats reasonable and unreasonable to expect from someone else in that situation... Let alone what is general departmental policy...

And no, I am not LEO....

Thus the reason why officers are paid and trained to do the job and not civilians with no experience in hgih stress situations with a lack of firearm experience.

Civilians such as yourself, who, with whatever firearms experience you claim to have, and having watched the incident on tape 6 times far removed from the action and danger, still feel entitled to second guess the officers on the scene, WHO WERE GETTING SHOT AT, and although they may be paid and trained professionals, ARE STILL HUMAN and may react as such.

Folks, the officers that responded to the scene did the best they could under the circumstances. The criminals were stopped in the end, and no civilians or officers were killed. What more do you want???

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: Brackis

Thus the reason why officers are paid and trained to do the job and not civilians with no experience in hgih stress situations with a lack of firearm experience. I don't understand why this discussion has transformed into a cops are > or < than you topic, the point is that 41 minutes to stop two men is an obsurdley long time and everyone involved is fortunate that no one was killed; it could have been handled more effeciently making use of the weapons and number of officers who initially responded.

Maybe if cops automatically just shot dead anyone suspected of breaking the law, it would have taken less than 41 minutes. They do it that way in some countries.

A friend was telling me about something that happened in Guayaquil...this isn't normal, but apparently there was a jewelery store robbery, a bunch of cops responded, and by the end of it pretty much everyone in the store was dead. The cops' stories didn't really add up, and the whole incident was kinda fishy...the prevailing theory was that in the shootout, one of the cops had shot a civilian, and then they'd shot all the other civilians so that there wouldn't be any witnesses. Yikes.

Frankly, I'd rather they took their time and did it right.

 

[BuckNaked]

Civilians such as yourself, who, with whatever firearms experience you claim to have, and having watched the incident on tape 6 times far removed from the action and danger, still feel entitled to second guess the officers on the scene, WHO WERE GETTING SHOT AT, and although they may be paid and trained professionals, ARE STILL HUMAN and may react as such.

Folks, the officers that responded to the scene did the best they could under the circumstances. The criminals were stopped in the end, and no civilians or officers were killed. What more do you want???

I would like people like Brackis to take a 250 class at Gunsite and realize how his 'leet skilz' bustin' caps will likely get him or someone else killed if he should ever have to use a firearm in a defensive manner... 😀

Edit: And I don't mean that as a poke at you Brackis... I have had some defensive firearms training, and I find the more I learn, the less I actually know, and would like others to realize the same thing...

 

[Brackis]

Originally posted by: slick230

Civilians such as yourself, who, with whatever firearms experience you claim to have, and having watched the incident on tape 6 times far removed from the action and danger, still feel entitled to second guess the officers on the scene, WHO WERE GETTING SHOT AT, and although they may be paid and trained professionals, ARE STILL HUMAN and may react as such.

Folks, the officers that responded to the scene did the best they could under the circumstances. The criminals were stopped in the end, and no civilians or officers were killed. What more do you want???

Your first paragraph sympathizes with officers for being human, yet you say they did as well as possible? Make up your mind. I fully agree with you that they are human, I am simply saying that if the bank was robbed by those guys and they were given 2/3rds of an hour to spray bullets 5 times out of ten someone would get struck and die. Under your principle of human error, I am saying that the first group of policeman to respond cmay have been able to more effeciently end the confrontation with their weapons so that the cowardly robbers weren't given the extra time to walk into a residential area and shoot civilians.

 

[Brackis]

Originally posted by: jagec


Maybe if cops automatically just shot dead anyone suspected of breaking the law, it would have taken less than 41 minutes. They do it that way in some countries.

A friend was telling me about something that happened in Guayaquil...this isn't normal, but apparently there was a jewelery store robbery, a bunch of cops responded, and by the end of it pretty much everyone in the store was dead. The cops' stories didn't really add up, and the whole incident was kinda fishy...the prevailing theory was that in the shootout, one of the cops had shot a civilian, and then they'd shot all the other civilians so that there wouldn't be any witnesses. Yikes.

Frankly, I'd rather they took their time and did it right.

Did it right?!
The guys were holding full length rifles and wearing ski masks and kevlar vests. Did they do it right when the guys were able to drive off from the bank and into an area where people had houses?

 

[theNorse]

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by: bradruth

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by: Brackis
"What I don't understand is why they simply didn't shoot the robbers
in the head where they had no armor"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

> actually - LAPD and other Law Enforcement Offficers ARE NOT ALLOWED
to Shoot *Anybody* in the head - the Law in the State of
California &amp; specifically Los Angeles - dictates that they cannot
shoot anyone in the head . . . go figure eh?



< btw - there were 6 (six) suspects originally - robbing that B of A ( i was there - in L.A.)
> there was a *Blue Flu* episode w/ the PD that day . . . and KTLA News Chopper reported
that the 'white' vehicle (driven by the 2 shooters @ the end) was reportedly owned / licensed
to a team in the LAPD . . . this is what the news reported during the shoot - it was later
removed from the Live Feed) wtf ?

nobody

 

[bradruth]

Originally posted by: slick230
bradruth, you have my respect for not telling these civilian know-it-alls to STFU by now. All of these people saying how THEY would have done things, how THEY have experience shooting targets at the range that DON'T shoot back, how THEY know about tactics... it makes me laugh.

:beer: for you and your bro's in blue (or black, or brown, whatever color uniform you guys wear 😀)

Thanks. I appreciate that.




Oh, and we wear blue at my Dept. 😉

 

[K1052]

This subject seemes to pop up regularly every couple months. I wonder why.

 

[LTC8K6]

The fact that these criminals, with their vastly superior firepower and heavy body armor, were unable to escape is a great tribute to the LAPD imo. Especially considering that the officers who arrived first might as well have been throwing rocks.