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JJChicken

Diamond Member
Apr 9, 2007
6,166
12
81
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Originally posted by: lupi
And more importantly is the win of 2 huge states and the popular vote with it.
Luckily popular vote doesn't decide jack squat in the primaries. Otherwise Hillary would have a leg to stand on, instead of being the legless gimp she is.
Moreover, the popular vote doesn't include some caucuses. And we all know the FL and MI shouldn't realyl count since no one campaigned in them. The bitch has better name recognition but when Obama campaigns he catches up fast. Obama would have easily won the popular vote as well.
 

Bitek

Diamond Member
Aug 2, 2001
9,701
3,852
136
Ding dong the cheater is dead! :music::heart::laugh:


Come Wed its over.
 

RY62

Senior member
Mar 13, 2005
819
47
91
Originally posted by: Barack Obama
Originally posted by: lupi
And more importantly is the win of 2 huge states and the popular vote with it.
And more importantly is Wednesday this nomination will be OVER.
That's not entirely true. The nomination is not really "OVER" until the convention. Presumptive nominee...probably. Nominee....not quite.
Anything can happen and, until the convention, there's still "hope".

 

Bitek

Diamond Member
Aug 2, 2001
9,701
3,852
136
Originally posted by: RY62
Originally posted by: Barack Obama
Originally posted by: lupi
And more importantly is the win of 2 huge states and the popular vote with it.
And more importantly is Wednesday this nomination will be OVER.
That's not entirely true. The nomination is not really "OVER" until the convention. Presumptive nominee...probably. Nominee....not quite.
Anything can happen and, until the convention, there's still "hope".
Yeah, we all heard Hillary's ideas of what can "happen" to a candidate.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Ya got to love it when the Republican controlled legislature in Florida includes a primary election date change - that the Democratic minority tried to amend to comply with the DNC - that had as the primary focus voting machines creates for the Floridians once again chaos for the Left and smirking on the Right...

Tell me how the DNC can not seat with full voting rights the delegates from Florida. They didn't do anything but comply with state law.. Republican controlled state law.

Maybe I'm just in from a long trip from the next galaxy and missed this one.. but there it is..
 

MovingTarget

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2003
8,992
96
91
I'm glad that this will soon be coming to a close as a point of contentions with the dems. This has gone on long enough. However, what I don't agree with is the whole notion that it shouldn't count simply because they didn't campaign in those states. I happen to believe that the people there are capable of researching the candidates themselves instead of letting "the campaigns" doing the work for them. What really screwed the pooch so to speak with that argument was the fact that Obama withdrew his name from the ballot.

Hopefully the Democratic Party will fix this in time for the next round of presidential primaries. I'd rather see the states themselves go back to the system of having the electors campaign locally for each state to determine who composes that state's delegates to the convention. Then have the candidates debate each other during the convention and have the delegates pick the final candidate. This whole state party vs. DNC rules thing should've been seen coming a mile away.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Ya got to love it when the Republican controlled legislature in Florida includes a primary election date change - that the Democratic minority tried to amend to comply with the DNC - that had as the primary focus voting machines creates for the Floridians once again chaos for the Left and smirking on the Right...

Tell me how the DNC can not seat with full voting rights the delegates from Florida. They didn't do anything but comply with state law.. Republican controlled state law.

Maybe I'm just in from a long trip from the next galaxy and missed this one.. but there it is..
Go for another trip into Left field... this time, try it without the koolaid.

:roll:
 

feralkid

Lifer
Jan 28, 2002
15,496
3,076
126
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Ya got to love it when the Republican controlled legislature in Florida includes a primary election date change - that the Democratic minority tried to amend to comply with the DNC - that had as the primary focus voting machines creates for the Floridians once again chaos for the Left and smirking on the Right...

Tell me how the DNC can not seat with full voting rights the delegates from Florida. They didn't do anything but comply with state law.. Republican controlled state law.

Maybe I'm just in from a long trip from the next galaxy and missed this one.. but there it is..
Go for another trip into Left field... this time, try it without the koolaid.

:roll:
Dang, you're a mean drunk.

 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Ya got to love it when the Republican controlled legislature in Florida includes a primary election date change - that the Democratic minority tried to amend to comply with the DNC - that had as the primary focus voting machines creates for the Floridians once again chaos for the Left and smirking on the Right...

Tell me how the DNC can not seat with full voting rights the delegates from Florida. They didn't do anything but comply with state law.. Republican controlled state law.

Maybe I'm just in from a long trip from the next galaxy and missed this one.. but there it is..
Go for another trip into Left field... this time, try it without the koolaid.

:roll:
Well... is the substance of my comment incorrect? Did not HB537 have amendments sought by the Left to move the primary vote back to Feb 5th or 6th? Was the Bill not originally to do with the voting machine changes?

I don't find fault with the Michigan decision... well except the uncommitted delegates who according to the DNC Charter shall be seated with full voting rights. Or does 'Shall' take the meaning as in the US Constitution regarding extradition where it says "... Shall extradite... " and the SCOTUS found that meant 'May'?

Any how, thanks for the direction you provided... I shall toss the ball to you in Hank Bower's old position...

 

Robor

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
16,979
0
0
Originally posted by: feralkid
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Ya got to love it when the Republican controlled legislature in Florida includes a primary election date change - that the Democratic minority tried to amend to comply with the DNC - that had as the primary focus voting machines creates for the Floridians once again chaos for the Left and smirking on the Right...

Tell me how the DNC can not seat with full voting rights the delegates from Florida. They didn't do anything but comply with state law.. Republican controlled state law.

Maybe I'm just in from a long trip from the next galaxy and missed this one.. but there it is..
Go for another trip into Left field... this time, try it without the koolaid.

:roll:
Dang, you're a mean drunk.
Hey, F YOU buddy! :p
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
2
0
I think we can safely dispense with the name calling, LunarRay has a point here, and its not the Florida democratic party's fault the primary was moved up. But still, Florida was not supposed to count and Obama did not campaign in Florida.

And here at the very end of a long, close, and hard fought democratic nomination campaign, the disputed States of Florida and Michigan are the last clutching straws Hillary has to hold on to as she drowns beneath the Obama deluge.

Hillary made the strongest case she could to the democratic gathering today, Hillary made some headway because she succeeded in raising the bar from 2025 to 2118. But its still too little too late. Before today, Obama was only 44 delegates short of the nomination, and now he is about 68 short for a net Obama extra hurdle of 24 extra delegates.
With 86 remaining elective delegates and some 200 uncommitted super delegates, a mere Obama gain of 68 of those 286 or so seems all but certain. And given the fact Obama is expected to win at least 30 of the remaining 86 elective delegates, that reduces his magic number to 38 out of 200 or so super's.

Right now Hillary is still talking tough and inflating her position much like a pufferfish, I think that will be soon replaced by a concession after Obama reaches 2118 and starts heading over 2200 delegates, partially augmented by ex Hillary super delegates that are deserting a sunk ship.
 

aphex

Moderator<br>All Things Apple
Moderator
Jul 19, 2001
38,572
2
81
Originally posted by: Hafen
Originally posted by: Avalon
Originally posted by: Robor
Originally posted by: loki8481
Originally posted by: Robor

Hey, F YOU buddy! :p
don't call me buddy, guy :|
I'm not your guy, pal! :|
I'm not your pal, buddy! :|
Hey bro, I'm not your pal, your buddy, or your guy, so piss off.:|
Well i'm pissing on both of you. Shhhh.. Lets get back on topic.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
67,521
4,198
126
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Ya got to love it when the Republican controlled legislature in Florida includes a primary election date change - that the Democratic minority tried to amend to comply with the DNC - that had as the primary focus voting machines creates for the Floridians once again chaos for the Left and smirking on the Right...

Tell me how the DNC can not seat with full voting rights the delegates from Florida. They didn't do anything but comply with state law.. Republican controlled state law.

Maybe I'm just in from a long trip from the next galaxy and missed this one.. but there it is..
Go for another trip into Left field... this time, try it without the koolaid.

:roll:
You're supposed to make a counterartument, not just make some lame insult. I would answer his position as follows:

1. The Democrats in Florida mostly voted to move the date. Yes, they tried to get that provision out of the bill that was mostly about getting new voting equipment but they failed. Florida passed legislation that included moving the election date and that was against the rules and everybody knew it. If you vote for the bill because it has good and bad in it you vote for both and have to live with both. When you vote for a law and it passes it passes and you live with it.

2. The Florida electorate went to the polls knowing the Democratic vote wouldn't count and the Republican vote would be worth half. So it was not a real election. Large numbers voted but large numbers may not have bothered. Holding an election that isn't going to count influences the vote in unknowable ways and can't later be counted. Not campaigning in the state also changes things. Who knows how many votes Obama would have gotten had he actively campaigned there as opposed to not since Clinton was well known there. It is absurd, after an election is declared meaningless to say that what was done has any real meaning. We can't know how a real election that was supposed to count and was actively campaigned for might have been different. You can't now count what was not going to count any more than you can change the 2000 election because Gore really won.

The rules were that if the date was changed the election wouldn't count and the date was changed and it was announced the vote wouldn't count. The people who voted knowing their vote wasn't going to count are are not more important than the people who stayed home because it was a waste to vote when it wouldn't count. And votes that are cast without a campaign being waged are also tainted. Because you can't undo the reality that there was no campaign and the votes were not supposed to count, you can't now count them. All you can do is accommodate the status quo from other elections that counted and split them relatively evenly.



 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Moonbeam,
All of your comments are fair and I'd be hard pressed to argue against them in a substantive manner. There is, however, one itty bitty issue that remains. The voters did vote who voted and the election was certified by the Florida Sec. State. It was a real election. The voters did not do anything wrong by voting for their candidate and the other issues on the ballot so why have their voice cut in half?

The real goings on was the conservative state officials who wanted a property tax initiative to fail.. they determined that if they made the primary season election meaningless to the Left they would carry the day. They included this Jan 29 day thingi to thwart the support for the initiative.. That is hard to prove but it follows the logic in other events.. so I say they did what they did to accomplish what they wanted to accomplish..

End of the day type analysis suggests to me that Florida will either get their full share in Denver or they will do the unthinkable... vote for McCain.. heheheh they are a very Right leaning state anyhow but, show great support for Clinton but not so for Obama using the statistical analysis I've seen anyhow or if you believe Harold IckIck..
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
67,521
4,198
126
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Moonbeam,
All of your comments are fair and I'd be hard pressed to argue against them in a substantive manner. There is, however, one itty bitty issue that remains. The voters did vote who voted and the election was certified by the Florida Sec. State. It was a real election. The voters did not do anything wrong by voting for their candidate and the other issues on the ballot so why have their voice cut in half?

The real goings on was the conservative state officials who wanted a property tax initiative to fail.. they determined that if they made the primary season election meaningless to the Left they would carry the day. They included this Jan 29 day thingi to thwart the support for the initiative.. That is hard to prove but it follows the logic in other events.. so I say they did what they did to accomplish what they wanted to accomplish..

End of the day type analysis suggests to me that Florida will either get their full share in Denver or they will do the unthinkable... vote for McCain.. heheheh they are a very Right leaning state anyhow but, show great support for Clinton but not so for Obama using the statistical analysis I've seen anyhow or if you believe Harold IckIck..
One can't have bad principles because having good ones can be inconvenient. If by playing by the rules you lose that's the way it goes. It does not matter who did what or why, in my opinion. The rules were that if you change the date the election doesn't count and the date was changed. One can't go back after and say, well look here, the other guys changed the rules not us. It didn't say the election wouldn't count except it the other guys changed the rules. It just said if the date is changed, period, and it was. Once it has been announced that the election isn't going to count and nobody is going to campaign, any vote that happens is meaningless. How can you seriously count an election that took place which everybody knew wasn't going to be counted and nobody campaigned in? All you can do is suffer with how painful and unfair it is. Hillary may have won if both were on both ballots and both campaigned, but we can't know for sure because voters knew their votes weren't supposed to count. It would be said that the people who did vote were people for whom rules don't matter and who figured they could bulldoze their votes to be counted anyway, and people who accept rules stayed home.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Moonbeam,
All of your comments are fair and I'd be hard pressed to argue against them in a substantive manner. There is, however, one itty bitty issue that remains. The voters did vote who voted and the election was certified by the Florida Sec. State. It was a real election. The voters did not do anything wrong by voting for their candidate and the other issues on the ballot so why have their voice cut in half?

The real goings on was the conservative state officials who wanted a property tax initiative to fail.. they determined that if they made the primary season election meaningless to the Left they would carry the day. They included this Jan 29 day thingi to thwart the support for the initiative.. That is hard to prove but it follows the logic in other events.. so I say they did what they did to accomplish what they wanted to accomplish..

End of the day type analysis suggests to me that Florida will either get their full share in Denver or they will do the unthinkable... vote for McCain.. heheheh they are a very Right leaning state anyhow but, show great support for Clinton but not so for Obama using the statistical analysis I've seen anyhow or if you believe Harold IckIck..
One can't have bad principles because having good ones can be inconvenient. If by playing by the rules you lose that's the way it goes. It does not matter who did what or why, in my opinion. The rules were that if you change the date the election doesn't count and the date was changed. One can't go back after and say, well look here, the other guys changed the rules not us. It didn't say the election wouldn't count except it the other guys changed the rules. It just said if the date is changed, period, and it was. Once it has been announced that the election isn't going to count and nobody is going to campaign, any vote that happens is meaningless. How can you seriously count an election that took place which everybody knew wasn't going to be counted and nobody campaigned in? All you can do is suffer with how painful and unfair it is. Hillary may have won if both were on both ballots and both campaigned, but we can't know for sure because voters knew their votes weren't supposed to count. It would be said that the people who did vote were people for whom rules don't matter and who figured they could bulldoze their votes to be counted anyway, and people who accept rules stayed home.
Rules... ok.. rules.. let's see about some of them things..

Suppose I were to tell you that the DNC Charter has some of them there rules... among which are a few that deal with super delegates. You know the ones who are not selected by the primary but, rather, exist because they are elected to Congress or other covered offices. They didn't violate any rules did they... ??

The Charter

Article 10 deals with some rules.. maybe section 3 is informative..
Article 2 deals with some rules too.. like who is a Super Delegate and some nifty words like 'shall' and there is a whole bunch of other rules.. but mainly I speak to the Super Delegate rights.. no one can deny their right to vote a full vote according to the rules.. don't you agree?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
67,521
4,198
126
Do I agree? I have no idea. I would have to rely on the opinion of others to even begin to assimilate what it all means.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Do I agree? I have no idea. I would have to rely on the opinion of others to even begin to assimilate what it all means.
Well... in a sense I'd agree you would. But a fair reading of the words indicates to me that some delegates are members of the DNC etc.. they are delegates if no election occurred or if it was early or late. The words like Shall are hard to mistake. They are not delegates based on the popular vote.. they are Super Delegates and they decide who they will vote for based on their own mind set... IF the Charter says they are delegates and it does and the Charter says that all decisions etc of the DNC and its committees must conform to the Charter then how can these rules not be followed regarding Super Delegates.
I'd sorta agree that the 'Committed' delegates who represent the voters choice may be subjected to penalty in this case.. but only a 50% reduction in the vote from 1 to 1/2... it says that too.. But then here is the DNC disenfranchising the voter of their full say in the Denver fiasco to come.... hehehehehe they can't win can they... Dang.. I want to join the RNC where the smart folks live... they got this hard ball stuff down pat.. especially in Florida..
 

Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
62,340
14,563
136
One thing's for sure- it'll be tough for the repubs to criticize Dems for doing exactly the same thing as repubs wrt rogue delegations... or not, given their ability to create partisan spin...

If one of the Dem hopefuls can establish enough of a lead going into the convention, then they could request, and probably be granted, that MI and FL be granted full votes... magnanimous winners are always a big hit, a morale booster, so hopefully it'll work out that way...

As for the rest of it, I doubt that the McCain camp will get as much spite vote from Hillary supporters as they'd like- not that they'd mind or be embarrassed by any vote for any reason whatsoever. They'll pander to anybody... deliver essentially a third term for GWB if possible...
 

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