SATA or SCSI?

[charloscarlies]

I'm looking at upgrading my hard drives because it has become clear they are the true bottleneck in my system (80 gig 2mb cache Maxtors). I was pretty set on a couple of raptors, but I was looking through pricewatch and noticed scsi prices aren't nearly as bad as they used to be. Of course I would need a controller so that would increase the cost a bit, but I just decided I would throw this out there and get some opinions.

The 15k scsi option seems to be too expensive for my taste. Is there any difference in a 10k rpm raptor and a scsi drive? Any advice on my next purchase?

 

[JustAnAverageGuy]

What are you going to use the computer for?

 

[Zepper]

The Raptor and a 10k SCSI are basically the same mechanically. Other than mechanically, there is little comparison - have you seen any SATA rig that can handle 15 drives? Well, the LSI U-160 Host Adapter (never "controller" when you're talkin' scuzzy) that you can get at newegg for less than $50. can do that! Get a couple of the U160 10k drives that have been on sale cheap all over and you'll be happy as a pig in slop.
. Hitachi is about to come out with a 300G 10k SCSI drive, but you'd probably have to mortgage your house to buy one...
. But that RAID-0 setup should be pretty zippy. Have you gone over it with a fine tooth comb looking for tweeks or wrong settings, etc? Kept your firmware up to date? Some drives have settings to make them quieter, but also slows them down - is that set for full speed operation?
.bh.
:moon:

 

[BD231]

Originally posted by: Zepper
The Raptor and a 10k SCSI are basically the same mechanically. Other than mechanically, there is little comparison - have you seen any SATA rig that can handle 15 drives? Well, the LSI U-160 Host Adapter (never "controller" when you're talkin' scuzzy) that you can get at newegg for less than $50. can do that! Get a couple of the U160 10k drives that have been on sale cheap all over and you'll be happy as a pig in slop.
. Hitachi is about to come out with a 300G 10k SCSI drive, but you'd probably have to mortgage your house to buy one...
. But that RAID-0 setup should be pretty zippy. Have you gone over it with a fine tooth comb looking for tweeks or wrong settings, etc? Kept your firmware up to date? Some drives have settings to make them quieter, but also slows them down - is that set for full speed operation?
.bh.
:moon:

Raptors don't have on-board controllers like SCSI drives do dude

.

 

[charloscarlies]

I use it mostly for gaming, video editing (with very large files...hence the raid 0), and other school related tasks. The possibility of a drive failure for me is not a real issue because I never kept anything of very large importance on the raided drives. I actually am not on raid at the moment because I was in a big hurry to get my new setup going. I've only dealt with onboard raid...could that be the problem?

Hehe... and thanks for the info about calling it a controller....shows how much I know about scsi. A couple of 10k rpm drives sound like a great option...and you're right I've seen some good deals lately (the only reason I'm even considering it). Other than the ability to run many drives is there really a speed advantage though?

 

[Zepper]

re. Raptors don't have on-board controllers like SCSI drives do dude ...

I said mechanically, not electronically... dudey head.
..bh.
:moon:

 

[BD231]

Originally posted by: charloscarlies
I use it mostly for gaming, video editing (with very large files...hence the raid 0), and other school related tasks. The possibility of a drive failure for me is not a real issue because I never kept anything of very large importance on the raided drives. I actually am not on raid at the moment because I was in a big hurry to get my new setup going. I've only dealt with onboard raid...could that be the problem?

Hehe... and thanks for the info about calling it a controller....shows how much I know about scsi. A couple of 10k rpm drives sound like a great option...and you're right I've seen some good deals lately (the only reason I'm even considering it). Other than the ability to run many drives is there really a speed advantage though?

IDE drives require a lot of CPU time, SCSI dose not. Combine more free CPU cycles with a higher burst rate and higher sustained transfer rate and it's obvious SCSI is just the better choice due to the fact that it's less taxing on the rest of your components.

You could get yourself a decent SCSI setup for the price of a raptor. You'll notice the difference IMO, which makes using your computer that much more fun.

PS: If a Raptor is easier for you I'm sure you would not be disappointed with it either.

 

[charloscarlies]

Ok I have another quick question....it's somewhat on topic.

I think my biggest problem with my last raid setup was that I had both drives on the same channel....i know i know...shhh

Is there any way to setup a raid array without having to reinstall my os's? I am having a bit of a problem installing raid drivers while installing XP (f6 method). I get some "unexpected error...blah blah" every time I stick the floppy in and try to load the drivers. I've tried so many different drivers, and nothing works. It's a pretty old copy of XP Pro (no SP1)...if that even matters.

By the way thanks for all the great info guys.

 

[charloscarlies]

Ok last post for now...

What brand drive would you guys recommend?

I was looking at these:

Maxtor SCSI

The price looks good. It a good drive?

 

[sharkeeper]

This is much faster and cheaper! It's SCA but includes an adapter to work on 68pin cables.

Cheers!

 

[Monoman]

Originally posted by: shuttleteam
This is much faster and cheaper! It's SCA but includes an adapter to work on 68pin cables. Cheers!

I was looking for that deal and I couldn't remeber where it was. Thanks!

 

[charloscarlies]

This is much faster and cheaper! It's SCA but includes an adapter to work on 68pin cables.

Does look very very nice...but how is $50 more = cheaper?
I would love to get a couple of 15k drives...but definitely a bit of a price difference.

 

[Soulkeeper]

if it's just for storage then get the raptors
but if you plan on running any kind of a server environment and have always wanted to try scsi (like me) then scsi might be the more fun way to go


good luck

 

[jdogg707]

Ya, if it's going to be a personal machine grab a pair of Raptors because they will suit your needs just fine, but if you have the money and need something a little more robust, then go with SCSI drives.

 

[charloscarlies]

if it's just for storage then get the raptors
but if you plan on running any kind of a server environment and have always wanted to try scsi (like me) then scsi might be the more fun way to go


good luck

heh...i pretty much fall under that category of the person who always wanted to try scsi. the raptors seem more practical for my setup, but scsi definitely would be more fun (to me atleast).

 

[bob4432]

for a cheap scsi setup take a look at this drive and get a lsiu160 card from newegg for about $40. also don't forget to get a good u320 cable with a terminator which will run ~$40 too. i have tried the 80 pin drives with the 68 pin adapter and have not had luck, although my problem may be the exception and not the norm. i have an 18GB version of the drive and according to hdtach i get ~50MB/s sustained and i also have one of the newer fujitsu 36GB drives where i get ~60MB/s sustained.

going back to sata hdds, a friend has 2 80GB 8MB drives in a striping raid (~80MB/s sustained) and his machine definately moves, he also has 2 15K 36GB 8MB seagates (~125MB/s sustained) with a adaptec scsi raid card and that thing really moves but it is $$$$$.

even with the specs being pretty close, the scsi machines do feel a little snappier.

 

[thorin]

Raptor kicks the butts of all drives listed at StorageReview.com with the exception of the top 2 Ultra320 SCSI drives, it even kicks the Seagate Cheetah 15.3 Ultra320 series.

Here's their full review of the Raptors.

Thorin

 

[LethalWolfe]

Just out of curiousity what kind of video are you working with?


Lethal

 

[Zepper]

You don't have to pay $40. for a cable. You can get excellent ones at most of these vendors for lots less than that.

hypermicro.com (free ground shipping if you mention www.storagereview.com)
centrix-intl.com
pc-pitstop.com
scsi4me.com (offers PayPal as a payment option)
and I can often find stuff for low bucks on eBay.

More excellent SCSI info: http://www.scsifaq.org .

.bh.

 

[Markfw]

The raptors may show that they are fast on that bench, but I find it hard to believe they can complete with a REAL SCSI solution, especially when done right with a good controller. IDE and SATA can have how many drives in a raid0 config ? 2 ? Or do some allow for 4 ? SCSI can have raid5 with 30 drives, and that will blow any raptor setup away ! It all depends on how much money you have.....

 

[dullard]

Originally posted by: Markfw900
The raptors may show that they are fast on that bench, but I find it hard to believe they can complete with a REAL SCSI solution, especially when done right with a good controller. IDE and SATA can have how many drives in a raid0 config ? 2 ? Or do some allow for 4 ? SCSI can have raid5 with 30 drives, and that will blow any raptor setup away ! It all depends on how much money you have.....

Everyone agrees that with unlimited money, SCSI is the way to go. You don't need to repost that same information that everyone else posts over and over again. The fact is the top SCSI is faster than the top SATA, but you must pay for that performance. Charloscarlies specifically made this thread with advice on BUDGET purchases. So in your opinion is a single top SCSI drive worth the price delta over a single Raptor?

I've tried SCSI and was unimpressed once you figure in the price. On typical budgets I think SCSI is not the way to go. The quite recently announced new SCSI drives may help in the price/performance region - or maybe not. Plus anyone know when they'll actually be available?

 

[charloscarlies]

Thanks guys I think I'm going to go with a couple raptors...seems like I can't go wrong with it. It's also nice not having to buy a controller.

I do a lot of counter-strike video editing. When making a movie half-life spits out bitmaps frame by frame...and those are put in order and run like a movie. Needless to say thousands upon thousands of bitmaps at decent resolution can be very large and moving them around on these drives is very slow at times.

Thanks for all the good info guys.

 

[Markfw]

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: Markfw900
The raptors may show that they are fast on that bench, but I find it hard to believe they can complete with a REAL SCSI solution, especially when done right with a good controller. IDE and SATA can have how many drives in a raid0 config ? 2 ? Or do some allow for 4 ? SCSI can have raid5 with 30 drives, and that will blow any raptor setup away ! It all depends on how much money you have.....

Everyone agrees that with unlimited money, SCSI is the way to go. You don't need to repost that same information that everyone else posts over and over again. The fact is the top SCSI is faster than the top SATA, but you must pay for that performance. Charloscarlies specifically made this thread with advice on BUDGET purchases. So in your opinion is a single top SCSI drive worth the price delta over a single Raptor?

I've tried SCSI and was unimpressed once you figure in the price. On typical budgets I think SCSI is not the way to go. The quite recently announced new SCSI drives may help in the price/performance region - or maybe not. Plus anyone know when they'll actually be available?

Even in that area, I still think SCSI wins. What got me back into it recently, was adding a 9 gig 7200 rpm SCSI drive with an adaptec 2940 (old stuff), and it boots faster than a 8 meg cache 80 gig IDE with the same CPU ! And it is more responsive while in the system !

 

[beatle]

Originally posted by: charloscarlies
Thanks guys I think I'm going to go with a couple raptors...seems like I can't go wrong with it. It's also nice not having to buy a controller.

I do a lot of counter-strike video editing. When making a movie half-life spits out bitmaps frame by frame...and those are put in order and run like a movie. Needless to say thousands upon thousands of bitmaps at decent resolution can be very large and moving them around on these drives is very slow at times.

Thanks for all the good info guys.

When editing, do you do a lot of reading/writing to the drives very quickly? e.g. do you read from a file and write to another? If so, I would HIGHLY recommend not running RAID 0. Rather, leave the drives as individuals and read from one and write to the other. This will be MUCH faster than RAID 0.

 

[KnightPalatine]

Originally posted by: Zepper
You don't have to pay $40. for a cable. You can get excellent ones at most of these vendors for lots less than that.

hypermicro.com (free ground shipping if you mention www.storagereview.com)

I paid $29 for a four-position cable with LVD terminator from HyperMicro. I think they were out of four-position cables, because they invoiced and shipped a five-position cable for the same price.

I mentioned storagereview.com but got charged shipping anyway, so that offer may no longer be valid. The price was right anyway, and the shipping & handling charge was quite reasonable. Good service, prompt shipment.

I bought the cable, a LSI U160 controller, and a Seagate 18.4GB 15k.3 Cheetah drive. This is now my boot & applications drive. I use a Western Digital 120GB ATA 100 for storage (including video editing) and games.