Sandy Showed Nuke Plants' Vulnerability

[rcpratt]

Posting in a Steeplerot thread.

 

[Acanthus]

The IAEA should be all over LFTR, it's sad that such good idea's continue to be wasted.
Nuclear power isn't equal, there are many different ways of creating power using nuclear fission.

It is sad that we aren't developing LFTR reactors in the US.

 

[Steeplerot]

Dude that was the Russians not us.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farallon_Islands#Nuclear_waste_dump

Right off the coast of SF.

They also scuttled a ship from the bikini atoll tests there.

I know, you would think the US wouldn't do this.

At least those Russkies entombed their popped reactor core posthaste.

We just cover up and let our allies marinate slowly

 

[QuantumPion]

So then what happens?

Nothing. If the human race disappeared overnight, the plants and spent fuel would sit there for thousands of years harming nothing. At some point the structure would collapse due to natural events but there is no radioactivity above normal background by that point. The spent fuel and core become safe to handle after about 200 years - meaning even if they were entirely released to the environment, no animals or life would be affected at all.

 

[mect]

Saying you are exposed in Japan makes you a social outcast immediately.

They are very wary of admitting it as literally half of Japan would be shunned.

A not very well known issue in America: hibakusha

It's not one of the Japanese cultures highpoints to be frank.

Hibakusha and their children were (and still are) victims of severe discrimination due to lack of knowledge about the consequences of radiation sickness, which people believed to be hereditary or even contagious.


There is considerable discrimination in Japan against the hibakusha. It is frequently extended toward their children as well: socially as well as economically. "Not only hibakusha, but their children, are refused employment," says Mr. Kito. "There are many among them who do not want it known that they are hibakusha."

We have a big problem here, the US doesn't want to deal with the fact that they sold half-assed faulty plants (the GE MKI) they knew would shit out the bottom. And the problem mentioned above in Japan.

So you are anti-science, and yet you are accusing others of being anti-science. You use the same rhetoric as everyone else in order to disregard the science. You only believe in science when it supports your beliefs. So please, show me peer reviewed scientific data to support your claims, otherwise, I'll go with what the scientist is saying.

 

[Steeplerot]

Nothing. If the human race disappeared overnight, the plants and spent fuel would sit there

No, actually the water wold boil off in a amount of time depending on how "fresh" the spent fuel is, once exposed to oxygen the zirconium alloy sheaths would "crack" and release the fuel pellets while creating vast amounts of explosive hydrogen gas until the pressure vessels/pools rupture blasting the contents all over.

Fuku 1,2,3 and the upper part of 4's SFP crane deck did not just magically get blown to smithereens.

Nuclear engineer Arnie Gundersen demonstrates how Fukushima's fuel rods melted and shattered

http://vimeo.com/22209827

^ He brings a actual fuel rod from a reactor to demonstrate what zirconium alloy does when you take a blowtorch to it. Good times!

 

[piasabird]

Should put all coal plants along the east coast because the pollution blows out to sea. (On High Ground?)

 

[QuantumPion]

The specific topic I was addressing was the notion that "if all humans suddenly disappeared, the nuke plants would destroy all life on earth". If humans suddenly disappeared, most reactors would automatically safe shutdown. There would be some fuel damage at some plants over time. Some might melt down. Most of these would be contained by the plants containment. It's possible some of the oldest designs like Fukushima could have some radiation release.

More significantly though, even if every single nuclear plant exploded like Chernobyl at the same time, natural life would be completely unaffected. Radiation is simply not as dangerous as is commonly feared. Yes, in large doses over short periods of time it can cause cancer in humans. But plants and animals don't care about cancer - they don't live long enough to have to worry about it.

 

[Steeplerot]

But plants and animals don't care about cancer - they don't live long enough to have to worry about it.

Your head would make a fine neutron absorber. You dont use it, so you dont have to worry about it.

 

[Agent11]

What Pion is saying is true, there have been biological tests done in the exclusion zone of Chernobyl. There are defects at a greater percentage than we would find acceptable but it is not stopping the wildlife from thriving.

He is also correct about Fukushima, all of those plants should be decommissioned and replaced with liquid fueled molten salt reactors, newer plants though are much safer.

 

[Steeplerot]

liquid fueled molten salt reactors, newer plants though are much safer.

Liquid sodium safe? Please, dont make me laugh like that.

Cooling that is combustible when it hits oxygen, and explosive when it touches water. Great ideas for safety!

Hows that working out anyhow? Monju is a TOTAL FAILURE. 20 years and it ran for what? A week?

See the big mess when the Japanese accidently dropped a freaking crane into the reactor cooling? You guys are already irradiated in the head I think.



On December 8th, 1995, 700 kg of molten sodium leaked from the secondary cooling circuit of the Monju reactor, resulting in a fire that made headlines across the country. Although the accident itself did not result in a radiation leak, many argue that the fire came close to breaching Monju, a catastrophe which would have spilled plutonium into the environment.

Following the fire, officials at the government-owned Power Reactor and Nuclear Fuel Development Corporation (PNC), operators of Monju, first played down the extent of damage at the reactor and denied the existence of a videotape showing the sodium spill. Later, they released still shots only, showing things like intact pipes and clean floors and claiming that there had only been "a minor leakage in the secondary sodium loop [that had] caused some fumes". While short videos were released, these were edited to hide the full extent of the damage. Further complicating the story,the deputy general manager of the general affairs department at the PNC, Shigeo Nishimura, 49, jumped to his death the day after a news conference where he and other officials revealed the extent of the cover-up.

Starting from September of 2007, Nishimura's family brought the story back to light in a trial against the PNC at Japan's High Court.


Bunch of lying secretive con artists looking for more taxpayer money at the expense of the health of the population for utterly failed cold war technology.

 

[Agent11]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_fluoride_thorium_reactor


'Inherent safety.

LFTRs can be designed to be inherently safe: They can have passive nuclear safety, that is, strong negative temperature coefficient of reactivity. The temperature dependence comes from 3 sources. The first is that thorium absorbs more neutrons if it overheats, the so-called Doppler effect.[43] This leaves fewer neutrons to continue the chain reaction, reducing power. The second effect has to do with thermal expansion of the fuel.[43] If the fuel overheats, it expands considerably, which, due to the liquid nature of the fuel, will push fuel out of the active core region. In a small or well moderated core this reduces the reactivity. However in a large under-moderated core less fuel salt means better moderation and thus more reactivity. The third part is the graphite moderator, that usually causes a positive contribution to the temperature coefficient.[43]
Stable coolant. Molten fluorides are chemically stable and impervious to radiation. The salts do not burn, explode, or decompose, even under extreme temperature and radiation.[44] There are no rapid violent reactions with water and air that sodium coolant has. There is no combustible hydrogen production that water coolants have. The molten fluoride coolant has no significant chemical reactions with any of the materials present in the reactor system.[45]

Low pressure operation.

Because the coolant salts remain liquid at high temperatures,[44] LFTR cores are designed to operate at low pressures, like 0.6 MPa [46] (comparable to the pressure in the drinking water system) from the pump and hydrostatic pressure. Even if the core fails, there is little increase in volume. Thus the containment building cannot blow up. LFTR coolant salts are chosen to have very high boiling points. Even a several hundred degree heatup during a transient or accident does not cause a meaningful pressure increase. There is no water or hydrogen in the reactor that can cause a large pressure rise or explosion as happened during the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear accident'

There are many types of fission reactors, and many ways to do a liquid fueled molten salt reactor.
Because the coolant turns to a solid at room temperature and if left alone the reaction will die, this IS safe.

Watch this. The introduction is dry but the presentation is made by a smart individual. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHs2Ugxo7-8

 

[Steeplerot]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_fluoride_thorium_reactor


'Inherent safety.

LFTRs can be designed to be inherently safe: They can have passive nuclear safety, that is, strong negative temperature coefficient of reactivity. The temperature dependence comes from 3 sources. The first is that thorium absorbs more neutrons if it overheats, the so-called Doppler effect.[43] This leaves fewer neutrons to continue the chain reaction, reducing power. The second effect has to do with thermal expansion of the fuel.[43] If the fuel overheats, it expands considerably, which, due to the liquid nature of the fuel, will push fuel out of the active core region. In a small or well moderated core this reduces the reactivity. However in a large under-moderated core less fuel salt means better moderation and thus more reactivity. The third part is the graphite moderator, that usually causes a positive contribution to the temperature coefficient.[43]
Stable coolant. Molten fluorides are chemically stable and impervious to radiation. The salts do not burn, explode, or decompose, even under extreme temperature and radiation.[44] There are no rapid violent reactions with water and air that sodium coolant has. There is no combustible hydrogen production that water coolants have. The molten fluoride coolant has no significant chemical reactions with any of the materials present in the reactor system.[45]

Low pressure operation.

Because the coolant salts remain liquid at high temperatures,[44] LFTR cores are designed to operate at low pressures, like 0.6 MPa [46] (comparable to the pressure in the drinking water system) from the pump and hydrostatic pressure. Even if the core fails, there is little increase in volume. Thus the containment building cannot blow up. LFTR coolant salts are chosen to have very high boiling points. Even a several hundred degree heatup during a transient or accident does not cause a meaningful pressure increase. There is no water or hydrogen in the reactor that can cause a large pressure rise or explosion as happened during the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear accident'

There are many types of fission reactors, and many ways to do a liquid fueled molten salt reactor.
Because the coolant turns to a solid at room temperature and if left alone the reaction will die, this IS safe.

Watch this. The introduction is dry but the presentation is made by a smart individual. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHs2Ugxo7-8

I could build a freaking death star (with giant planet smashing laser) for cheaper then this convoluted mess. What a taxpayer boondoggle. I am sure GE and friends are creaming their jeans at getting to feed from the taxpayer pigtroth for this scam.

 

[brianmanahan]

Did steeplerot hijack Perknose's account or something? He seems to be totally off the wall with the crazy today.

:awe:

:whiste:

 

[Tylanner]

So much of the original article and subsequent thread are lacking technical insight that it is hard to know where to begin.

Bottom line, the NRC provides reasonable assurance that a significant radiation release will not occur during the life of any US nuclear plant.

You can bring up however many close calls you want. Nuclear power is a science. Every single bolt on every single pump/valve/pipe/motor/tank that has anything to do with public safety is inspected and reviewed and re-reviewed.

The "Not a matter of if, but when" does not apply, and has no technical basis whatsoever.

"Can, might have, could have, usually, almost, if", you'll be using those words for a long, long time.

 

[Steeplerot]

"Can, might have, could have, usually, almost, if", you'll be using those words for a long, long time.

The point is you all leave out the "does happen". The doozy.

 

[Fenixgoon]

The point is you all leave out the "does happen". The doozy.

in reactor designs that date back to barely past WWII, none of which are operated in the United States.

 

[Steeplerot]

in reactor designs that date back to barely past WWII, none of which are operated in the United States.

Where are you all getting all this bad data from -on a tech forum no less? Fuku's reactors were all MK1 that were designed in the late 60s. We have quite a few running still, some even older. Most have far more spent fuel stuffed in their roofs then even the infamous #4 SFP drama that is currently unfolding.

Brown's Ferry NPP being one for example that is very old even compared to Daiichi and stuffed full of spent fuel from it's first cycle to today for example.

 

[Fenixgoon]

Where are you all getting all this bad data from -on a tech forum no less? Fuku's reactors were all MK1 that were designed in the late 60s. We have quite a few running still, some even older. Most have far more spent fuel stuffed in their roofs then even the infamous #4 SFP drama that is currently unfolding.

Brown's Ferry NPP being one for example that is very old even compared to Daiichi and stuffed full of spent fuel from it's first cycle to today for example.

i'm saying that all these old reactors that failed have not been in the united states, i.e. that the nuclear regulatory commission and the u.s. nuclear industry are doing a good job of maintaining aging facilities.

and really, the safest thing to do is replace aging plants with new ones with far superior designs, not keep certifying them for 25 years at a time.

 

[Agent11]

I could build a freaking death star (with giant planet smashing laser) for cheaper then this convoluted mess. What a taxpayer boondoggle. I am sure GE and friends are creaming their jeans at getting to feed from the taxpayer pigtroth for this scam.

It's the scientists and engineers that want to do this, because it is an elegant solution that minimizes many of the inherent risks of nuclear power.