Sandy Bridge Overclocking and motherboards

ehume

Golden Member
Nov 6, 2009
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I'm seeing reviews of Gigabyte motherboards where they struggle to reach 4.8GHz with a 2500K. I'll admit I haven't been paying too much attention to this generation of cpu's, but as I recall a 2600k is supposed to have a max multiplier of 57, for a max clock of 5.7GHz.

My experience with 1156 Gigabyte boards has been that they can go faster than As.s and other boards. Are the 1155 Gigabyte boards different?

What boards support 5.7GHz clocks on a 2600k?
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
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I'm seeing reviews of Gigabyte motherboards where they struggle to reach 4.8GHz with a 2500K. I'll admit I haven't been paying too much attention to this generation of cpu's, but as I recall a 2600k is supposed to have a max multiplier of 57, for a max clock of 5.7GHz.

My experience with 1156 Gigabyte boards has been that they can go faster than As.s and other boards. Are the 1155 Gigabyte boards different?

What boards support 5.7GHz clocks on a 2600k?

I suppose you'd have to find someone who is fiddling with both the ASUS and Gigabyte boards. But I've already seen comparison reviews where the result is neck and neck. For instance, if I'm not mistaken, per the ASUS and AsRock Z68 boards. Also, I would think that the Z68 chipset itself is a step up from the P67 and an improvement upon it. I"ve seen less posts on these forums from people who worry about some malfunctin of the ASrock boards as opposed to the ASUS or Gigabyte, but small samples don't tell a lot, and problems can develop from cases where the consumer/enthusiast doesn't know -- or isn't sure -- what he/she is doing.

I'm also skeptical about the hype, only because I'm a conservative over-clocker looking for a "sweet-spot" that's just within a "safe" voltage range and the thermal throttling spec. I have observed profound confusion among the Hot-Dawg OC community over the specs for the "K" chips posted by Intel. Unless I didn't look hard enough, this is the first time -- the first generation of chips I've looked at -- in which Intel seemed to omit two specs: the "safe" voltage range, and the "operable" voltage range. It might seem that the VID range posted by Intel was the operable range, and the same impatient OC community has certainly proven it.

The reviews have been written by people who are simply running benchmarks to see how high the chip will go. There seems to be a tongue-in-cheek acceptance that voltages of 1.4V and even higher are acceptable, as the reviewers push the CPU over 5.0 Ghz. One young lady enthusiast, trying to post her own OC'ing guide to fellow forum members at another over-clocking site, began her dissertation by stating "Step 1: Raise the VCORE to 1.45V." If she wasn't just doing a quick benchmark, I'll take bets from people about the number of months before she either attempts to RMA the chip or simply replaces it.

And all these reviews show voltages for more modest over-clocks with VCORE settings which may themselves be higher than necessary to sustain those clocks as stable.

Meanwhile, I've seen people posting threads on this forum who are worried about their temperatures -- their core temperatures -- breaking 80+C @ 4.7 Ghz. They're voltages also seem to be pushing the limit. I'd never seen a review or heard from anyone who wasn't running their VCORE at 1.37+V to 1.40V at the 4.7Ghz speed, even though I'd seen someone who had reached 5.0 with the 1.40V VCORE, on the same system and board-- which happened to be the ASUS P8Z68 [ . . . ]. The individual enthusiasts posting on forums were raising worries when suddenly they were having trouble with the entire range of temperatures on those CPUs, but again, some in the "community" had advised to "keep your temperatures below 90C." The thermal throttling spec for the K chips is 72.6C.

At the Intel community forum, another individual posted a thread with the same developing problem about temperatures. In the ensuing interaction, he noted he'd been told the 90C myth, and the respondent -- possibly and even probably an Intel employee -- asked with impatient animation: "Who told you that you could run these CPUs at load temperatures of 80C?"

The Nehalem chips were also 32nm silicon, as are the Sandy Bridgers. Since the Nehalem safe-range limit had been spec'd at about 1.37V, I think that's probably the case for the Sandys. I've paid more attention to the "advice" of reviewers or aspiring OC-guide writers who suggest that 1.30V is a good target.

For 24/7 operation with air cooling, I'm optimistic about getting to 4.6. If I can't, I'll console myself that the performance in Giga-flops seemed to peak at 4.43 and dropped off by a single Gigaflop at 4.53. Or better, it's still the fastest thing I've seen at only 3.91 Ghz.

So I'm not so sure that any board supports the speed you mentioned unless it uses subzero, phase-change, liquid nitrogen cooling. Then -- under those circumstances, it may well be any such board. Even so, I think I saw that with such a cooling system, the voltage was still pushed close to 1.6V. But you're not likely of the singular inclination to invest in such cooling, and I'd think you'd worry about electromigration and chip-death from overheating.

At this point, with only my ASUS board as reference but from what I've seen second-hand on this and other forums, the practical limit for 24/7 operation is defined by the CPU, it's voltage and thermal limits.

Others my rebuke my thoughts here, but this is my assessment so far.
 
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Kenmitch

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
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Both the P67 and Z68 chipsets support up to the 57x multiplier but that doesn't mean it's useable.

The maximum overclock burdon lies on the CPU more than the motherboard. As far as the 57x multiplier goes yeh it's unlocked up to that....But that doesn't mean that it's useable. Depending on how the bios is tweaked on motherboard XX vs motherboard YY it's possible one or the other may get you a slightly higher overclock. CPU's are kinda strange and they seem to have their own personalities. Depending on the CPU you may be able to get to 5ghz on a $100 motherboard or you may be only able to get to 4.6ghz on a $300 motherboard.
 

john3850

Golden Member
Oct 19, 2002
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I am happy with 4500mhz with 1.33vcore.
I need 1.42vcore to hit 4800mhz.
Now to get to 4900mhz takes 1.44+vcore.

People that have benched a few i7-980X at 45-4600mhz claim that after one good benching session with 1.45+vcore that there cpus have degraded a bit.
I wonder if intel will stop the K chips if they receive to many rma
 

Diogenes2

Platinum Member
Jul 26, 2001
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..............There seems to be a tongue-in-cheek acceptance that voltages of 1.4V and even higher are acceptable, as the reviewers push the CPU over 5.0 Ghz. One young lady enthusiast, trying to post her own OC'ing guide to fellow forum members at another over-clocking site, began her dissertation by stating "Step 1: Raise the VCORE to 1.45V." If she wasn't just doing a quick benchmark, I'll take bets from people about the number of months before she either attempts to RMA the chip or simply replaces it.
....................
Just her ?


How many months ? What kind of bet ?


I have been running 1.45, pretty consistently for folding since late January ..


I'm still waiting for reports of actual failures from people running higher than 1.4v ...
 

MadScientist

Platinum Member
Jul 15, 2001
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In the past Intel would include a vcore operating range in their processor datasheets but I don't see one in their datasheet for these processors.
http://download.intel.com/design/processor/datashts/324641.pdf

They do have a table that shows a max VCC Voltage Identification (VID) as 1.52V, and as BD has stated some may have taken this as the operable high vcore limit.

I don't know where some reviewers are getting their information that you should not go over this or that vcore.

These processors have an oc wall that you can't scale by giving them more voltage or cooling, mine is 4.6 ghz.
If yours is capable of running 4.8 to 5.0 and you want to run it at 1.45 or higher vcore than do it. It's your processor.
 

ehume

Golden Member
Nov 6, 2009
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I am blown away by these responses. BonzaiDuck, I especially appreciate the extensive answer you wrote. I bookmarked this thread, and your post in particular. Thank you.

I'm aware that cpu's have their limits. I just wanted to make sure that if I got a P67 or Z68 board it would not limit what the chip could do. That's the problem a reviewer ran into with four Gigabyte Z68 mb's.

I like Gigabyte in part because of their support for Voltage control of cpu fans; but also for the ability of their boards to let cpu's go as fast as they can. OTOH, those mb's had adjustable BCLK's. I had a P55A-UD3P up to 232MHz, for example (albeit with a 9x multiplier on the i7 860). But Gigabyte may be losing their touch. <shrug>

What this teaches me is that I should wait a while before jumping on a 22nm cpu and mb.
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
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I am blown away by these responses. BonzaiDuck, I especially appreciate the extensive answer you wrote. I bookmarked this thread, and your post in particular. Thank you.

I'm aware that cpu's have their limits. I just wanted to make sure that if I got a P67 or Z68 board it would not limit what the chip could do. That's the problem a reviewer ran into with four Gigabyte Z68 mb's.

I like Gigabyte in part because of their support for Voltage control of cpu fans; but also for the ability of their boards to let cpu's go as fast as they can. OTOH, those mb's had adjustable BCLK's. I had a P55A-UD3P up to 232MHz, for example (albeit with a 9x multiplier on the i7 860). But Gigabyte may be losing their touch. <shrug>

What this teaches me is that I should wait a while before jumping on a 22nm cpu and mb.

Well, as I said, the Sandy Bridge is still 32nm silicon. The Ivy Bridge will be 22nm. This may allow for slightly faster CPUs, but the thermal and electrical limits will be more severe. Even so, you do have choices . . . For instance, if you didn't want to wait, you could build the system now with a Sandy Bridge core, then replace it sometime next year or beyond. In the release of Ivy Bridge, I think it has now been confirmed that the processor will arrive in two flavors: socket 2011, and socket 1155. So you could put an Ivy Bridge processor in your socket 1155 motherboard -- probably at most requiring a BIOS upgrade . . .

I'd remarked in another post that this pattern of Intel releases is very similar to the 2006 release of the 65nm Conroe and Kentsfield cores followed by the 45nm Wolfdale and Yorkfield C2D and C2Q. In that comparison, some here had already remarked a concern that there would stiill be "incompatibility," since this had occurred for motherboards with nVidia chipsets released for the 65nm C2D/C2Q. They could only allow for an upgrade to Wolfdale. But this was due to Intel holding the cards and nVidia's failure to do the 6-P -- "proper planning prevents p--- poor performance."

Here, we're talking about an exclusive regime of Intel chipsets.

For me, I have an "annual budget" and "three-year-plan" for a family of five people. So I could insert a "line-item" this year for a Sandy Bridge, replace it next year with the Ivy Bridge, buy another $100 motherboard next year and cycle the used SB to somebody else in the fam-damn-ily.

Diogenes2 said:
I have been running 1.45, pretty consistently for folding since late January ..


I'm still waiting for reports of actual failures from people running higher than 1.4v ...

Like MadScientist says, "it's your processor." It could be that my assessment is too pessimistic, but viewing the world in probabilistic terms is a great comfort. If my doctor tells me that continued smoking will eventually lead to this or that disease, it means that there is some probability it will happen next year, another probability that it will happen the following year, etc.etc. etc. They set the specs after testing to assure themselves (INTEL) of close to a 99.99&#37; chance that no RMA returns will occur during the warranty period. So those standards are very conservative and cautious. But if continued volting over a certain limit inevitably leads to electromigration and chip-degradation, it's "like the doctor said." And heat would be the more severe threat, I think.

There would be a probability distribution -- a frequency distribution -- for successive voltage increments above that standard, matching a probability of chip failure and RMA return. So the higher you go, the likelihood of reduced lifespan slowly increases. Maybe, one would have a little luck, like those people in central Asia who live to a hundred smoking all the time and eating lots of yogurt.

On a humorous note, there's that scene at the end of "Dirty Harry" with Clint Eastwood: "Do you feel lucky? Well -- Do you?! ......."
 
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Diogenes2

Platinum Member
Jul 26, 2001
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..............
Like MadScientist says, "it's your processor." It could be that my assessment is too pessimistic, but viewing the world in probabilistic terms is a great comfort. If my doctor tells me that continued smoking will eventually lead to this or that disease, it means that there is some probability it will happen next year, another probability that it will happen the following year, etc.etc. etc. They set the specs after testing to assure themselves (INTEL) of close to a 99.99&#37; chance that no RMA returns will occur during the warranty period. So those standards are very conservative and cautious. But if continued volting over a certain limit inevitably leads to electromigration and chip-degradation, it's "like the doctor said." And heat would be the more severe threat, I think.

There would be a probability distribution -- a frequency distribution -- for successive voltage increments above that standard, matching a probability of chip failure and RMA return. So the higher you go, the likelihood of reduced lifespan slowly increases. Maybe, one would have a little luck, like those people in central Asia who live to a hundred smoking all the time and eating lots of yogurt.

On a humorous note, there's that scene at the end of "Dirty Harry" with Clint Eastwood: "Do you feel lucky? Well -- Do you?! ......."
I don't believe in " Luck ", and as far as I know, silicon doesn't either ...
It either works or it doesn't; and so far it's working ..

If it dies, I'll deal with it when it does..
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
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I don't believe in " Luck ", and as far as I know, silicon doesn't either ...
It either works or it doesn't; and so far it's working ..

If it dies, I'll deal with it when it does..

Well, luck is about the odds, the numbers, the probability. If it's working so far, then it's working . . . . so far. . . . . I'd agree with others here: Even if pushing up the voltage will reduce the actuarial expectations for the CPU, you'll likely move on to the next generation of CPU's before it happens . . . .

You will agree with the prevailing wisdom posted many times here: "Don't use an OC'd machine for 'serious work' or [more seriously] 'mission-critical' work." That's where I, myself, choose to take a "walk on the wild side."

While some of us like to think we're "pushing the edge of an envelope" or "hanging our a** over the edge" -- none of us have the testing lab resources of a duopolist/dominant-firm like Intel to generate enough data to predict the future -- beyond "so far."

I DO THINK that they're holding back on technological state-of-the-art. They can afford to ration it to the consumer, given their market position. But that wasn't just my own opinion -- I caught some others in these forums talking about it . . . .
 

ehume

Golden Member
Nov 6, 2009
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One thing I like about unlocked chips is their ability to scale with the workload. While I have an i7 860 that stays at 4004MHz (22x182MHz) and a Vcore of 1.3125v, my everyday machine is an 875k with a BCLK of 133MHz and Vcore of normal+0.0325v that Turbo Boosts to 30x (4GHz) and a Vcore of 1.36v on demand. While I recognize that I could get better performance with a high BCLK and high Vcore, the compromise I have allows me to have my OC when I want it, and not really risk electromigration.
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
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One thing I like about unlocked chips is their ability to scale with the workload. While I have an i7 860 that stays at 4004MHz (22x182MHz) and a Vcore of 1.3125v, my everyday machine is an 875k with a BCLK of 133MHz and Vcore of normal+0.0325v that Turbo Boosts to 30x (4GHz) and a Vcore of 1.36v on demand. While I recognize that I could get better performance with a high BCLK and high Vcore, the compromise I have allows me to have my OC when I want it, and not really risk electromigration.

Your last word is a great help. Didn't want to be obnoxious, but was inclined to come back to expand an answer to Diogenes there . . .

The remark was "silicon works or it doesn't." But over time, we're not talking about zeros and ones, or quantum phenomena -- "is or isn't." Electromigration is a slow and continuous process.

Back to ehume . . . these new SB's won't allow you to change the bCLK beyond 110, and the casual advisories say "leave it alone" after you get to 103 (although some may be able to achieve 107.)

It's a completely different ballgame. I'm starting to feel comfortable with it. I reached my chosen target of 4.64 Ghz and a loaded voltage of 1.29V. I think I can get it down a bit more, but these chips, as much as they're all slightly different, probably fit into a profile in three-dimensional voltage, temperature and speed. . . .

But -- Hey! I'm happier than a pig in s***!! Really!! Of course, if I can drop it that much, maybe I'll start sending family members links to resellers for "Swiftech" before Xmas, or just save some more pennies and do it . . . . Lower temperatures? More voltage headroom???

But I also know how I had to adjust the "Voltage to be added to VCORE in 'Turbo' mode," after I went from 3.9 through about 4.4 with the same setting. The existence of that upswing in the exponential relationships -- cannot be avoided . . .