Sand Creek Massacre

[Tom]

Several years ago when I lived in Colorado I visited the desolate site of the Sand Creek Massacre. I cannot hope to relay the effect of actually being there had on me, but I think it is worthwhile to bring it to all of your attention on this day.

http://www.nps.gov/sand/history.htm


photo of site

 

[Infohawk]

Yet another reason Americans shouldn't get too high and mighty...

 

[TheGameIs21]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Yet another reason Americans shouldn't get too high and mighty...

2 things...

1. America today had nothing to do with this so get over yourself. I'm not for paying any survivors of this just like I'm not for paying anything to survivors of slaves etc...

2. I am not going to go out and buy the books this site mentions but does anyone know why they were massacred? Did they ever attack or were they preparing to? If not, then it is a shame. (Never mind... Googling)

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: TheGameIs21

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Yet another reason Americans shouldn't get too high and mighty...

America today had nothing to do with this so get over yourself.

Fair enough. Just make sure you never mention America's past successes then. 😉 You can't have it both ways. While you're at it shut up about other countries' past failures to since history doesn't count. 😉

 

[TheGameIs21]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: TheGameIs21

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Yet another reason Americans shouldn't get too high and mighty...

America today had nothing to do with this so get over yourself.

Fair enough. Just make sure you never mention America's past successes then. 😉 You can't have it both ways. While you're at it shut up about other countries' past failures to since history doesn't count. 😉

Can you provide me a source of me commenting on any contries past failures or successes? 😉 Until you do, I can get as high and mighty as I want about my country as it currently is. Thanks for playing.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: TheGameIs21
Until you do, I can get as high and mighty as I want about my country as it currently is. Thanks for playing.

It's all about the preemption. 😉 And I was addressing all posters, not just you.

 

[NesuD]

Originally posted by: TheGameIs21

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Yet another reason Americans shouldn't get too high and mighty...

2 things...

1. America today had nothing to do with this so get over yourself. I'm not for paying any survivors of this just like I'm not for paying anything to survivors of slaves etc...

2. I am not going to go out and buy the books this site mentions but does anyone know why they were massacred? Did they ever attack or were they preparing to? If not, then it is a shame. (Never mind... Googling)

Actually America back then didn't really have much to do with that either. The Sand Creek Massacre was perpetrated on Black Kettles band of Southern Cheyenne Indians by a force of Colorado territorial militia under the command of a man named Chivington as I recall. Basically what i would classify as vigilante weekend warriors. Chivingtons force was on a search and destroy mission against the hostile warrior bands of the Southern Cheyenne. Black Kettles Band of mostly Women, Children, and Oldsters was peaceful. In Fact Black kettle could very easily be called a Pacifist based on his consistant record of cooperation even after the Sand Creek massacre only to die later at the massacre on the wichita committed By Custer. What Chivington ordered done at Sand Creek was most definately an unjustified criminal act. The atrocities committed by the men under his command are some of the most repugnant I haver ever read about. Things like scrotums and female breasts being made into pouches. The indiscriminate killing of women children and old men. Hell in the Wichita massacre Black kettle even raised an American Flag given to him on a trip to D.C. and gathered his people around it to show that they were peaceful and they were all massacred where they stood under that flag. Sand Creek was carried out under the auspices of Territorial authority not Federal. There were no federal troops involved. The wichita massacre on the other hand was carried out as part of a federal campaign against the hostile southern cheyenne. Unfortunately Custer wasn't to concerned with getting it right as long as he was getting on the front page.

 

[Strk]

Originally posted by: TheGameIs21

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Yet another reason Americans shouldn't get too high and mighty...

2 things...

1. America today had nothing to do with this so get over yourself. I'm not for paying any survivors of this just like I'm not for paying anything to survivors of slaves etc...

2. I am not going to go out and buy the books this site mentions but does anyone know why they were massacred? Did they ever attack or were they preparing to? If not, then it is a shame. (Never mind... Googling)

They were, if I remember correctly, under a flag of truce and a flag of the United States with absolutely no intention of attackings.

Also, 2 things: 1) why wouldn't you pay a survivor? Seeing a 140+ year old person would be interesting(yeah, I couldn't help it 😉) and 2) from my readings, there were no survivors.

 

[TheGameIs21]

Originally posted by: Strk

Originally posted by: TheGameIs21

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Yet another reason Americans shouldn't get too high and mighty...

2 things...

1. America today had nothing to do with this so get over yourself. I'm not for paying any survivors of this just like I'm not for paying anything to survivors of slaves etc...

2. I am not going to go out and buy the books this site mentions but does anyone know why they were massacred? Did they ever attack or were they preparing to? If not, then it is a shame. (Never mind... Googling)

They were, if I remember correctly, under a flag of truce and a flag of the United States with absolutely no intention of attackings.

Also, 2 things: 1) why wouldn't you pay a survivor? Seeing a 140+ year old person would be interesting(yeah, I couldn't help it 😉) and 2) from my readings, there were no survivors.

"Survivors' includes living relatives in most cases. See Slavery Repirations (sp)...

 

[NesuD]

In Fact there were survivors. Black Kettle himself survived. Hard to recall and i dont have any reference materiel handy but I think the Flag of truce and US flag was at The Wichita massacre several years later although I may be wrong on that. It has been over 20 years since i studued the subject.

 

[NesuD]

Personally I think the idea of reparations for events several generations removed is silly. On the other hand if there were reparations the responsibility I believe would fall on the state of Colorado rather than the feds since this event was perpetrated by the territorial authority which is the direct precursor of the state of Colorado.

 

[judasmachine]

Trust me, it's not forgotten and neither are the hundreds of other places this sort of thing took place. It was a matter of policy, not so much written into law, but the commanders created such an enviornment of impunity that the soldiers gave their commanders, and the politicians what they like. Very similiar to what is going on in Israel right now. It is another method of breeding HATE. The higher ups talk about how the enemy is SATAN himself, and otherwise demonize the enemy. The soldiers usually being fairly impressionable, and bred to HATE, actually believe they are doing God's work by slaughtering people, whether they be Men, Women, or Children.

 

[Strk]

Originally posted by: NesuD
In Fact there were survivors. Black Kettle himself survived. Hard to recall and i dont have any reference materiel handy but I think the Flag of truce and US flag was at The Wichita massacre several years later although I may be wrong on that. It has been over 20 years since i studued the subject.

I'll have to grab a book or two I have that discusses the massacre, since I haven't read it in a while.(I guess I need a bit of a refreshing in it)

 

[NesuD]

Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee has very detailed accounts of both the Sand Creek and Wichita massacres. I would suggest it as an excellent reference on the topic.

 

[judasmachine]

Originally posted by: NesuD
Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee has very detailed accounts of both the Sand Creek and Wichita massacres. I would suggest it as an excellent reference on the topic.

I too would suggest that book. Great reading and it cuts down on the questions people ask me about my ethnicity.

 

[Tom]

"1. America today had nothing to do with this so get over yourself."

Completely false. Do you think the world started anew when you were born ?

 

[shiner]

Originally posted by: NesuD

Originally posted by: TheGameIs21

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Yet another reason Americans shouldn't get too high and mighty...

2 things...

1. America today had nothing to do with this so get over yourself. I'm not for paying any survivors of this just like I'm not for paying anything to survivors of slaves etc...

2. I am not going to go out and buy the books this site mentions but does anyone know why they were massacred? Did they ever attack or were they preparing to? If not, then it is a shame. (Never mind... Googling)

Actually America back then didn't really have much to do with that either. The Sand Creek Massacre was perpetrated on Black Kettles band of Southern Cheyenne Indians by a force of Colorado territorial militia under the command of a man named Chivington as I recall. Basically what i would classify as vigilante weekend warriors. Chivingtons force was on a search and destroy mission against the hostile warrior bands of the Southern Cheyenne. Black Kettles Band of mostly Women, Children, and Oldsters was peaceful. In Fact Black kettle could very easily be called a Pacifist based on his consistant record of cooperation even after the Sand Creek massacre only to die later at the massacre on the wichita committed By Custer. What Chivington ordered done at Sand Creek was most definately an unjustified criminal act. The atrocities committed by the men under his command are some of the most repugnant I haver ever read about. Things like scrotums and female breasts being made into pouches. The indiscriminate killing of women children and old men. Hell in the Wichita massacre Black kettle even raised an American Flag given to him on a trip to D.C. and gathered his people around it to show that they were peaceful and they were all massacred where they stood under that flag. Sand Creek was carried out under the auspices of Territorial authority not Federal. There were no federal troops involved. The wichita massacre on the other hand was carried out as part of a federal campaign against the hostile southern cheyenne. Unfortunately Custer wasn't to concerned with getting it right as long as he was getting on the front page.

:thumbsup:

Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one in these forums that knows anything about Native American history. Thanks for proving me wrong!!!

:beer: for you!!!

As for Chivington and Custer. They were two of the world's greatest assholes ever.

 

[Tom]

"There were no federal troops involved. "

Are you sure of that ? I thought Chivington had a Federal commision, but I'm having trouble finding out one way or the other online.

1. He is reported to have had command of Federal troops, as well as Colorado militia, in the battle of Glorietta Pass.

2. I've seen him referred to as the commander of the Military District of Colorado.

3. He was under some threat of Court Martial by the US Army.

I don't know the answer but I would think he would have to have a Federal commision if those points are accurate.

I know the troops he commanded at Sand Creek were not Federal troops.

 

[Strk]

Originally posted by: Tom
"There were no federal troops involved. "

Are you sure of that ? I thought Chivington had a Federal commision, but I'm having trouble finding out one way or the other online.

1. He is reported to have had command of Federal troops, as well as Colorado militia, in the battle of Glorietta Pass.

2. I've seen him referred to as the commander of the Military District of Colorado.

3. He was under some threat of Court Martial by the US Army.

I don't know the answer but I would think he would have to have a Federal commision if those points are accurate.

I know the troops he commanded at Sand Creek were not Federal troops.

I'll have to look up the details when I get home, but there was an issue regarding what exactly he was, because there was an attempt to charge him with the massacre.

 

[mgo]

Thank you for reminding me of the Sand Creek massacre. We need to remember.

 

[NesuD]

He may have at one time held a Commission in the US Army but I am pretty sure he did not at the time of Sand Creek. My recollection was that he held a commission as a Colonel in the Colorado militia from the Colorado Territorial legislature and was in command of the Colorado Militia at Sand Creek. His position and motivations were all pretty much tied to Colorado territorial politics.

I suppose he may have had some small units of federal troops at his disposal from time to time. I do believe that territorial governors held some authority over federal troops in their territories so he may have been loaned some from time to time.

I am inclined to suspect that the military district of Colorado was a creation of the territorial government.

Back east when the details of Sand Creek came out there most definately voices calling for him to be prosecuted. The Territory would not act on it so they attempted to Court Marshal him. The Court marshal I believe was based on the argument that his status as an Officer in the Colorado militia made him subject to the US armys rules of conduct. As i recall nothing ever really came of it.

Fact is Sand Creek was a result of the machinations of Colorado Territorial politics.