San Fransisco to vote on male circumcision ban in November

[slayer202]

Huh? What does it matter what they think? You can put the two things on paper and easily see the difference.

If you do any reading at all on the practice, and it's effects, and the reasons it is used, you would know the difference.


They also think marital-rape and honor killing are OK, so...

I'm simply saying that we are ok with a messed up practice simply because we are used to it. Other places are ok with other practices we see as crazy. Of course some are more extreme, but the principle is the same. And their feelings towards their own crazy principles are a lot more stubborn and "sure" than ours

 

[oogabooga]

It seems reasonable to let the kid decide to keep it or cut it when he's older, he's going to be the one using it after all.

Ehh, I don't know. I don't care one way or another for myself, but certainly, if I wasn't there is almost no chance I would do it when I grew up.

I'd be surprised to see this pass, seems like something families should just handle on their own.

 

[ShawnD1]

parents who chose to have their children vaccinated, or circumcised, or have any surgery, are doing what they feel is right for the child. this is not done out of malice, but out of parental feelings of responsibility for procedures that they feel benefit their child.

What if some crazy woman decided her 10 year old daughter should have breast implants? It's about as trivial as penis cutting, it doesn't really do any damage, and it's just some minor cosmetic surgery. Does the parent have the right to do this without the consent of the child? The mother could even say "I have breast implants and I love them. Actually I think men prefer them as well and I just want what's best for my daughter."

That's a real question. Setting clear cut (pun) rules, is it ok for parents to force cosmetic surgery on their kids. It's a simple yes or no.

 

[JulesMaximus]

I hadn't thought about this when my son was born and got side swiped by the doctor who came to ask if we wanted it done because I hadn't thought about it so said do it. In hindsight, this is one issue I should have researched before hand but just never thought about and probably wouldn't have had it done if I had BUT hindsight is 20/20....I cant see how having had it done to me when I was born has affected my life so I have a hard time seeing the issue with my son....shrug.

I was like you when our son was born. We hadn't given it much thought but then when we talked it over with our pediatrician and did some research on it ourselves we decided not to have our son circumcised. I, like you, am circumcised and it has never affected me at all in my life. It just seemed like a completely unnecessary procedure and it sure as hell doesn't look painless.

 

[Platypus]

And you have failed to see a compelling argument for circumcision I suppose.
Or you just turn a deaf ear towards any claimed benefits of the surgery.

No one is debating the surgery's benefits but the ability for a human being to have control over his own body and make informed decisions for itself. If there are benefits to circumcision then the man can make that decision as an adult if he wants it done.

 

[moshquerade]

What if some crazy woman decided her 10 year old daughter should have breast implants? It's about as trivial as penis cutting, it doesn't really do any damage, and it's just some minor cosmetic surgery. Does the parent have the right to do this without the consent of the child? The mother could even say "I have breast implants and I love them. Actually I think men prefer them as well and I just want what's best for my daughter."

That's a real question. Setting clear cut (pun) rules, is it ok for parents to force cosmetic surgery on their kids. It's a simple yes or no.

oh shit... here we go.
breast implants are the same as circumcision. you are totally correct. no argument from me whatsoever.

yes, i should stay in this one... really, it's worth my time. :awe:

 

[slayer202]

Ehh, I don't know. I don't care one way or another for myself, but certainly, if I wasn't there is almost no chance I would do it when I grew up.

I'd be surprised to see this pass, seems like something families should just handle on their own.

This is an interesting argument, speaking of hindsight. Though this scenario is different because it involves pain and your denials. I've heard it been discussed with the amish, and how no normal adults one day just choose to go and live the amish lifestyle, though those in the lifestyle don't seem to have a desire to leave

 

[moshquerade]

No one is debating the surgery's benefits but the ability for a human being to have control over his own body and make informed decisions for itself. If there are benefits to circumcision then the man can make that decision as an adult if he wants it done.

alright, you went there.

how about a baby who isn't able to say it wants to live? mother gets an abortion. boom.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

In a few hundred years, practices like this will be looked on as barbaric. Biologically, there is almost no justification for it, and even though it is not necessarily harmful, it seems like a practice that will eventually fall out of favor. I have a hard time bringing myself to support circumcision, because even though it's not medically harmful, it's also not medically beneficial, and it's done on infants who can't possibly offer any form of consent or dissent. There's really no rational justification for supporting it outside of "that's just how it's always been in our country," which is a pretty bad justification for anything. I wouldn't say that I'm staunchly against the practice by any means, but any time I try to think of the arguments for both sides, the "leave the child uncircumcised" argument always wins.

I wouldn't ever propose a law like this if I were in the position to do so... but I would probably vote for it if I could.

 

[ShawnD1]

It just seemed like a completely unnecessary procedure and it sure as hell doesn't look painless.

Because baby doctors are assholes. If you were 20 and wanted to get cut, they would gas you and do it while you're asleep or at least numb in that area, just like any other surgery. They do it to babies without any painkillers because they are assholes.

Did you ever see Robocop 2, that scene where they cut open that corrupt cop? That guy doing the cutting was probably a pediatrician

 

[JulesMaximus]

alright, you went there.

how about a baby who isn't able to say it wants to live? mother gets an abortion. boom.

Baby=born

Fetus=unborn, there's a difference.

 

[Platypus]

alright, you went there.

how about a baby who isn't able to say it wants to live? mother gets an abortion. boom.

If your only recourse to my statements is to introduce a completely different topic altogether then I'm afraid my ability to constructively continue the conversation ends here... not to mention it makes absolutely no sense since a child cannot conceptualize such existential topics.

 

[moshquerade]

Baby=born

Fetus=unborn, there's a difference.

to some people there is a difference. to others, not.

 

[moshquerade]

If your only recourse to my statements is to introduce a completely different topic altogether then I'm afraid my ability to constructively continue the conversation ends here... not to mention it makes absolutely no sense since a child cannot conceptualize such existential topics.

i suppose you can't take my point. understandable. i feel i had a point that countered your point which i had bolded. if you don't want to see that i won't press any further.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Because baby doctors are assholes. If you were 20 and wanted to get cut, they would gas you and do it while you're asleep or at least numb in that area, just like any other surgery. They do it to babies without any painkillers because they are assholes.

Did you ever see Robocop 2, that scene where they cut open that corrupt cop? That guy doing the cutting was probably a pediatrician

LOL! Yeah, our pediatrician showed us how they do the procedure. They strap the kid to a board with his little thing innocently exposed and then attack it with a knife and no pain killer. It just seemed barbaric as fuck to me. It makes me squemish just thinking about it.

 

[OCGuy]

Baby=born

Fetus=unborn, there's a difference.

I'm not against abortion (in fact I am for mandatory abortions in some cases), but this argument has always seemed stupid to me.

As if passing through the vagina magically changes your status from "bunch of cells" to "human."

Of course most late-term/partial birth abortions are banned, which I do agree with.

 

[killster1]

I'm liberal. I don't care what happens with abortion laws, because I hate kids, and will never be in that situation. I detest doctors and parents that circumcise without a medical emergency.

You guys are all uncircumcised? how nasty hehe i couldn't imagine it and its alot more clean / healthy to get it cut off.. jeez what a weird discussion. i didn't click the link or anything just read a few the comments funny stuff.

 

[SunnyD]

Because these people want to protect the baby's foreskin but are ok with completely killing the baby a few months prior.

At least the foreskin will still be intact!

 

[thegimp03]

i suppose you can't take my point. understandable. i feel i had a point that countered your point which i had bolded. if you don't want to see that i won't press any further.

No, he got bitch-slapped (no offense intended).

 

[slayer202]

And you have failed to see a compelling argument for circumcision I suppose.
Or you just turn a deaf ear towards any claimed benefits of the surgery.

A parents best interests can go to hell if they are wrong. You think parents should be able to deny their children perfectly safe vaccines because they are stupid?

In this day and age I thought circumcision didn't have any benefit

I think if people were more educated on the topic they would make smarter decisions on circumcision. As exampled in this thread, even some parents were unaware of the true meaning of the process and just assumed they should do it, which is probably common

 

[actuarial]

Understood - Save that cutting off a hand materially and significantly affects the child for the worse. Losing a foreskin hardly qualifies on that count, either.

I get that too. I was just pointing out the differences in the logic, and the fact that because it's less trivial than death is meaningless in this discussion.

And I agree on cutting of the hand is clearly wrong, the issue is finding that shade of grey between useful and harmful. A lot of people feel the usefulness of circumcision is zero (outside of religious influence, which should be excluded from the equation anyways) so the question is then harm. I believe the harm is near zero as well so I don't have a particular issue with circumcisions.

Then again, performing surgery on an infant for nothing other than religious reasons or vanity does rub me the wrong way. I may just accept circumcision as tradition, but I would definitely be against a parent tattooing a cross on a week old baby. So I'm a little at odds with myself on the reasoning for being against some things but not caring about this.

 

[moshquerade]

LOL! Yeah, our pediatrician showed us how they do the procedure. They strap the kid to a board with his little thing innocently exposed and then attack it with a knife and no pain killer. It just seemed barbaric as fuck to me. It makes me squemish just thinking about it.

you remember when you had yours done?

they do numb the area with lidocaine. :|

 

[Atomic Playboy]

to some people there is a difference. to others, not.

Scientifically, medically and legally there is a difference between a zygote, a fetus and a baby. Arguments about where life begins notwithstanding, to argue that a fetus and a baby are the same thing is ignorant.

 

[Platypus]

No, he got bitch-slapped (no offense intended).

How?

 

[moshquerade]

Scientifically, medically and legally there is a difference between a zygote, a fetus and a baby. Arguments about where life begins notwithstanding, to argue that a fetus and a baby are the same thing is ignorant.

calling someone ignorant in that case is purely your opinion. while you have a right to your opinion that doesn't make it right or make everyone on the planet share the same opinion.