San Francisco Seriously Considers Total Ban on Handguns

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,167
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San Francisco weighs merits of handgun ban

A bold ballot initiative could make the city a pioneer in gun control. But will it cut crime, or simply infuriate the gun lobby?

By Mark Sappenfield | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

SAN FRANCISCO ? In a city so often intent on making brash political statements, Chris Daly's tone is decidedly practical.
Last year, when the number of homicides nationwide fell unexpectedly and dramatically, murders in San Francisco surged. The district attorney called it an epidemic, police targeted new gang activity, and the mayor went door-to-door in one of the city's roughest neighborhoods to plead for calm - all to no avail.

So, as a member of the Board of Supervisors, Mr. Daly got serious. He has proposed a ban on handguns in the city, prohibiting any resident from making, buying, or even owning them. If approved by voters this fall, the ballot measure would give San Francisco the toughest handgun laws of any major city in the United States.

Daly insists that his proposal is simply about making San Francisco safer - being the vanguard of gun control is just a fringe benefit. Yet most experts are not convinced that handgun bans have any significant effect on crime, and some add that the ban's most likely outcome would be to provoke the national gun lobby in the same way that San Francisco's gay marriages riled cultural conservatives.

Once again, this most liberal of cities stands poised to take the lead on one of the most controversial areas of public policy, rousing to action both those who would follow sout and those who would oppose such measures.

"Laws like this have a symbolic meaning, but no effect other than to keep the issue inflamed," says William Vizzard, author of "Shots in the Dark: Politics, Policy, and Symbolism of Gun Control."

On one hand, San Francisco's national influence on the topic of gun control is limited, given that only 11 states allow cities to devise gun laws. Yet cities - and particularly California cities - have been the incubators for some of the most far-reaching gun-control laws to spread across the country, including assault-weapons bans and monthly limits on how many guns one person can purchase.

Whether the handgun ban would be a useful addition to this suite of gun-control laws, however, is uncertain. Two major US cities - Washington and Chicago - have had similar handgun bans in place for more than 20 years. Daly cites a 1991 study by the New England Journal of Medicine that suggests that the ban in Washington had an effect on violent crime in the years immediately after it began in 1976.

Moreover, his plan is even tougher, requiring residents who own guns to turn them in - the Washington and Chicago plans had clauses that allowed those who owned guns before the ban to keep them.

"With fewer handguns in the city, criminals will be much less likely to get their hands on one," says Daly, noting that handguns were involved in more than 60 percent of last year's 88 murders here.

The long-term tends, though, have not been positive. Washington and Chicago perennially have some of the highest homicide rates in the US. Last year, when Chicago's homicide count dropped an unprecedented 25 percent, the reason was not the ban so much as a new vigilance in getting guns out of the hands of criminals - using laws already on the books in many states.

"They were not trying to get guns out of law-abiding homeowners' hands," says Arthur Lurigio, chairman of the Department of Criminal Justice at Loyola University in Chicago. "But when they encountered suspects, they were vigorously confiscating guns and trying to figure out where they can find more guns."

Others agree that the greatest success in lowering murder rates has come when law-enforcement officials have made taking guns from criminals a top priority.

"There is no cheap way out of this," says Philip Cook, a public-policy professor at Duke University in Durham, N.C. "Criminals have a way of getting guns no matter what the law is."

That's not to say handgun bans are a bad idea, some analysts hasten to say, but rather that they might not necessarily be an effective crime-fighting tool all by themselves. In addition, they can make "reasonable" gun-control laws harder to pass, by bringing gun owners to a boil, says Dr. Vizzard.

In Washington, the National Rifle Association already has its eyes on San Francisco. The city passed a similar measure in 1982, but it was struck down in court because it illegally usurped state authority. Daly believes his proposal solves the problem, but it will surely receive a stiff legal test if it passes in November.

"The buzz is out there, and folks are watching with interest," says Andrew Arulanandam, a spokesman for the NRA. "This is a draconian gun ban... It is not a matter that ought to be taken lightly."

He suggests that gun owners, feeling ever besieged by governments and gun laws, are more politically attuned than most Americans. And there is perhaps no better example than Paul Quinn.

As a San Franciscan, he would have to turn over his handguns to authorities if the measure wins in November. To him, San Francisco's plan is less a criminal-justice mistake than a constitutional farce.

He portrays himself as a moderate. Though he calls guns "marvels of engineering," he bought his first one only five years ago when he moved here; he fears the chaos that could erupt after a large earthquake. Now, he's a self-made Second Amendment scholar, quoting 19th-century court decisions about the authority of the Supreme Court and the inconsistency of American gun laws.

The fight has come to his home turf. "It's nonsense," he says of the ballot measure. "It offends my sense of liberty much more than my sense of security."
 

Injury

Lifer
Jul 19, 2004
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Taking guns away from the law-abiding citizens does not protect them from those who will not follow any handgun laws, let alone a ban.

 

Syringer

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
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Originally posted by: Injury
Taking guns away from the law-abiding citizens does not protect them from those who will not follow any handgun laws, let alone a ban.

Ha, :thumbsup:
 

IGBT

Lifer
Jul 16, 2001
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..every time the supervisors get them selves into problems because of their reckless budgetary fiscal policies..spending more then they take in..they pull the handgun ban out of the bag and use it as a diversion from the real problems of San Francisco..Mayor Finstine did the same thing when she ran the city budget into a ditch...In late June 1982, then-Mayor Dianne Feinstein pushed through a handgun ban in San Francisco that lasted only three months before it was overturned by the California State Court of Appeals. Twenty days after the ban was enacted, SAF took Feinstein and the city to court, ultimately beating the ban on Oct. 30 of that year. The city appealed that decision to the California Supreme Court, which allowed the Appeals Court ruling to stand in January 1983.Text
 

notfred

Lifer
Feb 12, 2001
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4
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If they could ban handguns for the entire country, and check all cargo at the borders, then I could see this possibly reducing the amount of handgun violence in the US. If they ban them in just San Francisco, all you'll have to do to buy a handgun is drive a few minutes until you're outside the city limits. It won't help anything at all.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,167
18,775
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Originally posted by: IGBT
..every time the supervisors get them selves into problems because of their reckless budgetary fiscal policies..spending more then they take in..they pull the handgun ban out of the bag and use it as a diversion from the real problems of San Francisco..Mayor Finstine did the same thing when she ran the city budget into a ditch...In late June 1982, then-Mayor Dianne Feinstein pushed through a handgun ban in San Francisco that lasted only three months before it was overturned by the California State Court of Appeals. Twenty days after the ban was enacted, SAF took Feinstein and the city to court, ultimately beating the ban on Oct. 30 of that year. The city appealed that decision to the California Supreme Court, which allowed the Appeals Court ruling to stand in January 1983.Text

And the punchline to that story?

Dianne Feinstein had a CC permit at the time and carried a handgun. A permit is virtually impossible to get in CA.

Gotta love the hypocrites. Armed protection is OK for them, but not for the unwashed masses.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,167
18,775
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Originally posted by: notfred
If they could ban handguns for the entire country, and check all cargo at the borders, then I could see this possibly reducing the amount of handgun violence in the US.

Sure!! It worked for drugs, right? Why not for a 500+ year old technology that is easily smuggled or produced underground?
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
52,063
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It is nice to see they learned from other cities that enacted handgun bans and have cut handgun crime drastically as a result.

Kudos to their forward thinking!
 

Kipper

Diamond Member
Feb 18, 2000
7,366
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Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: notfred
If they could ban handguns for the entire country, and check all cargo at the borders, then I could see this possibly reducing the amount of handgun violence in the US.

Sure!! It worked for drugs, right? Why not for a 500+ year old technology that is easily smuggled or produced underground?

You can set up a meth lab in a forest, but somehow I don't see you producing handguns underground. ;)

The problem is that it is so widespread and pervasive in the US it is already too late for an all-out ban on handguns. In countries like Japan, where the technology is less pervasive it is easier to control - and they do have lower occurences of handgun violence and violence in general, although this is slowly changing.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,167
18,775
146
Originally posted by: MadCowDisease
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: notfred
If they could ban handguns for the entire country, and check all cargo at the borders, then I could see this possibly reducing the amount of handgun violence in the US.

Sure!! It worked for drugs, right? Why not for a 500+ year old technology that is easily smuggled or produced underground?

You can set up a meth lab in a forest, but somehow I don't see you producing handguns underground. ;)

The problem is that it is so widespread and pervasive in the US it is already too late for an all-out ban on handguns. In countries like Japan, where the technology is less pervasive it is easier to control - and they do have lower occurences of handgun violence and violence in general, although this is slowly changing.

"violence is general" is the key. In countries that are touted as examples of gun control lowering murder rates, the rates are lower for ALL modes of murder.

Does this mean the lack of guns makes people stab and bludgeon each other to death less?

The difference is obviously cultural. And not a single gun ban in the US has ever directly resulted in lowered crime rates. And in other countries, gun bans have often been followed by increased crime rates.

And if you think guns are harder to make than designer drugs, you obviously come from an area where shop classes were discontinued.
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
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Originally posted by: K1052
It is nice to see they learned from other cities that enacted handgun bans and have cut handgun crime drastically as a result.

Kudos to their forward thinking!

What cities would those be??? :confused:
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,167
18,775
146
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Originally posted by: K1052
It is nice to see they learned from other cities that enacted handgun bans and have cut handgun crime drastically as a result.

Kudos to their forward thinking!

What cities would those be??? :confused:

Check your sarcasm meter.
 
May 31, 2001
15,326
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Originally posted by: K1052
It is nice to see they learned from other cities that enacted handgun bans and have cut handgun crime drastically as a result.

Kudos to their forward thinking!

Indeed. I certainly feel safe walking down dark streets in Washington D.C. at night.
 

bradruth

Lifer
Aug 9, 2002
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Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Originally posted by: K1052
It is nice to see they learned from other cities that enacted handgun bans and have cut handgun crime drastically as a result.

Kudos to their forward thinking!

What cities would those be??? :confused:

Check your sarcasm meter.

He probably shot it all to hell when he used it for target practice with his big, scary, people-killing guns. ;)
 

Feldenak

Lifer
Jan 31, 2003
14,090
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Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Originally posted by: K1052
It is nice to see they learned from other cities that enacted handgun bans and have cut handgun crime drastically as a result.

Kudos to their forward thinking!

What cities would those be??? :confused:

Check your sarcasm meter.

Heh, yeah. I almost jumped on that post until I saw who wrote it. :)
 

desy

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2000
5,446
214
106
Canada has registered handguns since 1935 and have very strict penalties and storage and handling requirements.
Handguns count for 75% of firearm homocides and 66% of those aren't registered.
Hmmmmmmmmmm
 

777php

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2001
3,498
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Originally posted by: TravisT
All we can do is pray for an earthquake.

So what...hundreds and thousands of people who had nothing to do with the idiocy of a few, could suffer?
 

PricklyPete

Lifer
Sep 17, 2002
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This makes me want to go out and buy another gun. Mabye a USP this time...I've been eyeing that .40 S&W.
 

notfred

Lifer
Feb 12, 2001
38,241
4
0
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: notfred
If they could ban handguns for the entire country, and check all cargo at the borders, then I could see this possibly reducing the amount of handgun violence in the US.

Sure!! It worked for drugs, right? Why not for a 500+ year old technology that is easily smuggled or produced underground?

You really missed my point. My point was the only way it might have ANY effect at all, is if you could really prevent people from getting them. You cannot do that with a city-wide ban.
 

Feldenak

Lifer
Jan 31, 2003
14,090
2
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Originally posted by: notfred
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: notfred
If they could ban handguns for the entire country, and check all cargo at the borders, then I could see this possibly reducing the amount of handgun violence in the US.

Sure!! It worked for drugs, right? Why not for a 500+ year old technology that is easily smuggled or produced underground?

You really missed my point. My point was the only way it might have ANY effect at all, is if you could really prevent people from getting them. You cannot do that with a city-wide ban.

Exactly....prohibition has always worked.