Question Samsung 960 pro 1tb vs newer 1TB nvme ssd?

[Fallengod]

Ok. I am in the market looking to buy some type of nvme SSD, either off forums or new. Someone is offering me a Samsung 960 PRO 1TB. Would this be a good choice if priced right?

My question is, how much slower is the Sam 960 PRO 1TB versus the newer gen 1TB nvme ssds....Tried searching google but its hard to find legit benchmarks that compare it to newer gen SSDs.

Anyone?

 

[NewMaxx]

I have a few things to say on this subject!

• The 960 Pro uses the penta-core Polaris controller which is almost identical to the Phoenix used in the 970 series. Perhaps a bit lower-clocked with older firmware, but effectively the same.
• Samsung's MLC-based NVMe drives don't use SLC caching. In general you don't want SLC caching for the type of workloads you'd use MLC for - steady state and all that. TLC-based drives within SLC (pSLC) can be faster but only for limited periods of time. So it depends on workload. For consumer use, no need for MLC.
• MLC does have ~3x the endurance of TLC. However, for consumer use you'll never hit the limit of TLC. Samsung's 3D TLC has been measured at up to 10K P/E which would be 10PB on a 1TB drive - that's an insane amount.
• Ignore TBW. The TLC-based E12 drives have higher TBW than Samsung's Pro drives, that means nothing outside the warranty period.
• Speed is dependent on the flash, controller, configuration (e.g. # of channels), etc. Again, no SLC, so the 960 Pro tops out at 2100 MB/s (with queue depth) for writes. But that's higher than any TLC in TLC mode (usually 1000-1500 MB/s), that is you will outwrite TLC drives given enough writes.
• Latency is probably more important for many workloads, and power efficiency. MLC will absolutely be better than TLC outside SLC mode. You're seeing a pattern here.

Check the link in my signature to learn more. However, if you're looking for a fast personal drive, you probably wouldn't even need a NVMe drive but even if you go that route I doubt you'll see much difference among the faster ones, with some exceptions. MLC is overkill outside specific usage scenarios. I use a 950 Pro for caching on my NAS for example.

 

[Fallengod]

Thanks NewMaxx. I appreciate your knowledge.

To help refine my question. This is mainly for main OS drive for general use, multi-tasking(I day trade stocks) and maybe some gaming. Would any NVMe ssd be overkill? Probably. I dont care about that.

I do care about fast responsiveness and load times.

So, would a 960 PRO make sense in that scenario if it were priced correctly or should I go for one of the newer gen ones?

To ask a specific question. Would there be any big difference between a 960 PRO versus a 970 EVO or WD SN750 or E12 controller phison based SSD etc..

 

[NewMaxx]

You would probably be better off with a TLC-based drive as you'll be in SLC mode. The SM2262/EN-based drives have the best low queue depth, 4K performance, which most closely relates to load speeds. Definitely do not need a 970 EVO/EVO Plus or SN750. My second choice after that would be the WD SN550 which is surprisingly good without DRAM. After that, the E12 drives, although the Realtek-based NVMe drives are about as good and cheaper.

 

[Fallengod]

Ok. I will also add the guy is willing to sell me the 960 PRO 1TB for $110. If that adds any factor.

Can you list some of the top nvme ssds for low queue depth, 4k performance? So youre saying the WD SN550 is a good choice huh? I was kind of staying away from that due to it being dram-less. Everyone always says to stay away from dram-less ssds.

I am assuming that means low latency and fast response time ssds which help in overall "snappyness" and game loading/os loading/app loading etc?

And youre the best. Thanks for the help.

 

[UsandThem]

To help refine my question. This is mainly for main OS drive for general use, multi-tasking(I day trade stocks) and maybe some gaming. Would any NVMe ssd be overkill? Probably. I dont care about that.

For your use, just about any NVMe SSD out there would be more than enough for those uses.

Some people who do a lot of writes to the drive (which you won't do with your use) go with a drive with a very high write endurance warranty (like a 960/970 PRO, or drives like the Corsair MP510 which use the Phison E12 controller).

I am assuming that means low latency and fast response time ssds which help in overall "snappyness" and game loading/os loading/app loading etc?

Once again, just about any NVMe SSD choice you have will do that. My son's PC with a MyDigitalSSD SBX drive (which is only a PCIe 3.0 x2 drive) is still very fast.

 

[Fallengod]

For your use, just about any NVMe SSD out there would be more than enough for those uses.

Some people who do a lot of writes to the drive (which you won't do with your use) go with a drive with a very high write endurance warranty (like a 960/970 PRO, or drives like the Corsair MP510 which use the Phison E12 controller).

Once again, just about any NVMe SSD choice you have will do that. My son's PC with a MyDigitalSSD SBX drive (which is only a PCIe 3.0 x2 drive) is still very fast.

Ok fair enough. I guess I am diving into the minute details of the differing SSDs. I should clarify. My main drive is a Samsung 860 EVO SATA currently. I know a SATA SSD is fine for general uses, but I am looking to update my main os drive regardless of that fact, fair?

To interpret your answer. Basically, you are saying any other nvme ssd would improve on what I am asking or perhaps that I wouldnt even notice it anyways in real-world.

Basically I am trying to spend money for small improvements. I just want to help with boot times/load times, responsiveness etc. And of course concerned about reliability and durability.

Without going over $150 or so, which is the best and cheapest option in that area for boot times, response times, latency, low queue depth and 4k performance?

 

[NewMaxx]

Ok. I will also add the guy is willing to sell me the 960 PRO 1TB for $110. If that adds any factor.

Can you list some of the top nvme ssds for low queue depth, 4k performance? So youre saying the WD SN550 is a good choice huh? I was kind of staying away from that due to it being dram-less. Everyone always says to stay away from dram-less ssds.

I am assuming that means low latency and fast response time ssds which help in overall "snappyness" and game loading/os loading/app loading etc?

And youre the best. Thanks for the help.

$110 is a very good price for that drive, assuming it's in good shape.

DRAM isn't as crucial for NVMe drives when we're talking consumer workloads. The protocol has many innate advantages over AHCI that help mitigate that. All drives have a certain amount of embedded SRAM that can be used as well. The SN550 has certain quirks about its configuration that allow it to perform well without DRAM beyond this, namely a powerful controller and static SLC cache.

Loading times and latency are a matter of low queue depth performance and especially 4K (small I/O) random performance, for consumer/client workloads. Certain controllers (SMI) are better at this due to optimizations, but the difference between the best and the worst NVMe drive is fairly small. Certainly if you're not exceeding the SLC cache you won't have issues with almost any drive.

 

[Fallengod]

Are temps a concern on any of these? Any ssds better for lower temps to consider?

So off the top of your head, would be like 3 or 4 top drives you would recommend for me for what I am asking. Youre basically saying not to get a 970 evo, 960 pro or SN750 I guess. Those were like my top 3 choices.



SN550, any E12 controller Phison ssd(I know there are many), others?

 

[UsandThem]

Without going over $150 or so, which is the best and cheapest option in that area for boot times, response times, latency, low queue depth and 4k performance?

DRAM isn't as crucial for NVMe drives when we're talking consumer workloads. The protocol has many innate advantages over AHCI that help mitigate that. All drives have a certain amount of embedded SRAM that can be used as well. The SN550 has certain quirks about its configuration that allow it to perform well without DRAM beyond this, namely a powerful controller and static SLC cache.

Like NewMaxx stated, if I needed a good entry-level NVMe drive today for my PCs, I would either go with something like the WD SN550 1TB (I've seen it at $100).

If I were looking to get the price drive under $150 (and since SSD pricing fluctuates quite a bit lately), I would go with the WD SN750, Samsung 970 EVO, Corsair MP510, Adata SX8200 PRO, or the HP EX950. The deciding factor on any of those would be the price at the time I needed it.

 

[Fallengod]

Ok. So, here is my confusion. I can get a used but in good condition(so he says) Samsung 960 PRO 1TB for $110, still under warranty. I have also been offered a SN550 used with light usage for $50 shipped. I guess Maxx is saying not to get the 960 pro. Does that not have low queue and good 4k performance? Hes saying go for TLC instead for my needs. Correct?

So, WD SN750 is direct from WD website right now for $150 before tax. So, not bad right? I also purchased the Samsung 970 evo plus refurb that bestbuy has going on right now at $160, which is shipped already(I am going to check out usage on it and return if its bad). LINK

So which option do I stick with for low queue depth and best 4k performance for OS/Gaming/responsiveness.

I guess what youre basically saying is, I cant go wrong with either choice, but that isnt helping me decide.

 

[NewMaxx]

Are temps a concern on any of these? Any ssds better for lower temps to consider?

So off the top of your head, would be like 3 or 4 top drives you would recommend for me for what I am asking. Youre basically saying not to get a 970 evo, 960 pro or SN750 I guess. Those were like my top 3 choices.



SN550, any E12 controller Phison ssd(I know there are many), others?

If you have proper cooling in your case it shouldn't matter. Drives won't get that hot in daily use.

Yes, I wouldn't get MLC or any prosumer-leaning drive (970 EVO/EVO Plus, SN750). You're overpaying for probably worse consumer performance. Any decent SM2262EN drive will beat those in game/app loading for example. And even the SN550 - which is a SN750 without DRAM and fewer channels - will load faster than the SN750 because it has newer flash (BiCS4 vs. BiCS3). True story.

Like I said, check my signature. Once there there's a link to a site near the top under the TOC with resources like a buying guide, spreadsheet, etc.

 

[NewMaxx]

I guess Maxx is saying not to get the 960 pro. Does that not have low queue and good 4k performance? Hes saying go for TLC instead for my needs. Correct?

So, WD SN750 is direct from WD website right now for $150 before tax. So, not bad right? I also purchased the Samsung 970 evo plus refurb that bestbuy has going on right now at $160, which is shipped already(I am going to check out usage on it and return if its bad). LINK

So which option do I stick with for low queue depth and best 4k performance for OS/Gaming/responsiveness.

I guess what youre basically saying is, I cant go wrong with either choice, but that isnt helping me decide.

TLC in SLC mode (psuedo-SLC) will be faster than MLC. Including 4K. Consumer workloads like SLC, that's why consumer drives have it and MLC drives don't (it's detrimental to steady state performance, e.g. for enterprise).

The 1TB SN750 is actually ~$120 if you have EDU discount with 5% Rakuten cashback. Which is a great deal - except for the fact you can get the 1TB SN550 for <$90 with those same promotions and it's basically the same drive for consumer use. In fact it tends to load games slightly faster due to having newer flash. It will come back in stock, you just have to have it on notify.

The 970 Pro and EVO Plus are insanely overpriced and unnecessary. The E12-based drives are a far better value if you want that type of performance, but it's not necessary or even ideal for daily use.

Drives with SMI-based controllers have the best LQD/4K performance due to Intel's optimizations. You still want TLC if possible, although even the QLC drives are good with SMI. Again, check my resources, look under SM2262/EN filter on my spreadsheet for example. Although some SM2263 drives are also good, like the Kingston A2000, if you can find it priced right.

 

[Fallengod]

Ok. SMI-based and TLC it is. Thanks maxx. Where is the SN750 for $120 with EDU discount?

Where is your spreadsheet at again. I cant find the link.

 

[NewMaxx]

Ok. SMI-based and TLC it is. Thanks maxx. Where is the SN750 for $120 with EDU discount?

Where is your spreadsheet at again. I cant find the link.

WD's site. Have to login with their Youth thing or whatever. Rakuten has 5% cashback. So it's $149.99 - EDU discount = $127.49 - 5% CB = $121.12. Before tax. The SN550 is currently out of stock but at $109.99 would be $88.82 after the same two things. And again, at $30+ less it's hard to argue for the SN750.

Check my signature for a link to SSD Basics. Under the table of contents (TOC) there's a link to my site with full resources including the spreadsheet, but you can also find that on my subreddit. Or my profile page. Etc.

 

[Fallengod]

WD's site. Have to login with their Youth thing or whatever. Rakuten has 5% cashback. So it's $149.99 - EDU discount = $127.49 - 5% CB = $121.12. Before tax. The SN550 is currently out of stock but at $109.99 would be $88.82 after the same two things. And again, at $30+ less it's hard to argue for the SN750.

Check my signature for a link to SSD Basics. Under the table of contents (TOC) there's a link to my site with full resources including the spreadsheet, but you can also find that on my subreddit. Or my profile page. Etc.

You dont think the price difference with the SN750 is worth it? Isnt it quite a bit faster than an SN550? I guess youre saying for my needs it wouldnt be.

 

[NewMaxx]

You dont think the price difference with the SN750 is worth it? Isnt it quite a bit faster than an SN550? I guess youre saying for my needs it wouldnt be.

No, the SN550 will be faster since it has a newer version of the flash. I suppose you don't believe me. See it win here and here and here with game load times for example. If you're not pushing the drive hard enough to use the eight-channel controller (only sequential transfers!) or the DRAM (heavier workloads) then actually the newer flash is slightly faster. Note that the SMI drives are the fastest: SX8200 Pro and A2000 in the first image, KC2000 in the second, and SX8200 + A2000 again in the last, with even the QLC-based (but SMI) 665p coming close to the SN550.

But you'll notice the difference between even SATA and NVMe is pretty small, as people have been saying in this thread.

Disclaimer: I own the SN750 and intend to pick up a SN550. I absolutely would use the SN550 for gaming or general use. The SN750 is my workspace drive. It's insanely overpowered for normal use. But that's just my opinion.

That being said, my primary/OS drive is a 1TB EX920 that I've had for over 22 months (SM2262-based) and it's still the fastest OS drive I have. I use a 2TB EX950 for games (which despite being SM2262EN-based, is actually a bit slower, for technical reasons I won't elaborate here). You'd be crazy to use a SN750 or 970 EVO Plus for regular usage unless budget is not a concern and even then, again, the SN550 matches or beats the 970 EVO Plus with app/game load times with the SMI drives coming in better.

And yes, the 970 Pro does well in the first image, this is because SLC caching is a write cache and game loading is all reads. So MLC is still good there, but again, insanely overpriced for that type of usage. And when you do write (random 4K usually) the TLC drives with SLC caching will be faster.

 

[Fallengod]

Ok maxx. Thanks for clarifying. So, Sn550 is not SM2262-based obviously. So basically I want what you have for main OS/game drive pretty much. Ill check your spreadsheet out. I want either Sm2262 or maybe go for the cheap WD SN550 because it has newer flash I guess.

And to be clear, I have checked out many benchmarks already and I did notice the SN550 was within 1-2 seconds of loading/bootup times compared to 970 evo plus. I was not sure why that was nor how accurate that was and dismissed it up until this point.

You have greatly helped me decide here so I appreciate it.

I do have multiple EDU email addresses. I am going to checking WD store and if the SN750 really is around $120, I a may just go for that even if it is overkill. That is pretty cheap for the performance numbers ive seen in benchmarks. Ill check the SN550 as well.

 

[LOUISSSSS]

Sn550👍👌

 

[NewMaxx]

The SN550's controller is based on the SN750's which in turn was used in many client/OEM drives like the SN520 and SN720, going back to the WD Black. Client/OEM drives do tend to be optimized towards LQD and 4K but on paper the SN550 doesn't look very compelling. Client drives tend to be focused on consistent performance also, and Intel likewise optimizes their drives (e.g. 545s, 660p, 760p) towards this end. Intel worked with SMI (back to at least the 600p's SM2260) and they're very LQD/4K-oriented not least due to their Optane (3D XPoint) push.

If you don't quite grasp what I'm saying here, it's that WD in many ways followed suit. One telltale sign of this is static SLC (read up on it under my SSD Basics link): all of those Intel drives I listed have some or all static, and all of WD's drives I listed have static. This provides very consistent performance even when the drive is fuller and outside of SLC. WD is very aggressive also with its power states which is why it has good loading time and responsiveness despite the controller being more heavy-oriented. This does mean higher power consumption when idle by the way.

So the SN550 has a decent controller that's always ready to rock. It has very fast, consistent flash (96L/BiCS4) and reliable (static) SLC. For workloads that fit within its SRAM (4GB+) it's even good with writes. Its 4K read performance on paper is again not great, esp. at LQD, but it makes up for the lack of DRAM and the powerful controller by its overall design.

That being said, I think a SM2262/EN-based drive is superior, not least because they have larger caches (for bursty workloads) and better optimization. I just think that if you're going for budget the SN550 is a compelling option and further, the SN750 and 970 EVO Plus (for example) are overpriced for this.

FYI AnandTech has reviewed the SN500 which is the precursor to the SN550 (64L/BiCS3 like the SN750 being the main difference) and in the conclusion:

"The WD Blue SN500 defies expectations ... The WD Blue SN500 doesn't buckle under the pressure of our most intense tests, and it performs surprisingly well on The Destroyer even when compared against some high-end NVMe models of similar capacity ... Compared to the other small entry-level NVMe SSDs we've tested, the SN500 is a clear winner. It doesn't come out ahead in every single test, but the overall performance profile is much more consistent ... on the tests with more realistic IO patterns, the gap between the SN500 and the top tier of drives isn't huge ... as usual there are some even faster drives for sale in basically the same price range, including the HP EX920 (Silicon Motion SM2262) and the Team MP34 (Phison E12 controller)"

Keep in mind this was testing the 250GB SKU, the 1TB SN550 with updated flash will perform better.

 

[Fallengod]

I just signed up at WD store and you are right the SN750 is $127 only(before tax and shipping) with the student discount, thats not bad.

The SN550 is out of stock. Doh.

Samsung store has student discount as well, but the 970 evo plus 1TB is only discounted to $189.99 which isnt much of a discount.

I am going to poke around in a bit for SM2262 drives and see whats what.

 

[NewMaxx]

I just signed up at WD store and you are right the SN750 is $127 only(before tax and shipping) with the student discount, thats not bad.

The SN550 is out of stock. Doh.

Samsung store has student discount as well, but the 970 evo plus 1TB is only discounted to $189.99 which isnt much of a discount.

Yeah. SN550 was in stock for a day a few days ago. I stupidly passed on it because it's been cheaper, but I'll be getting one when it comes back in stock. (I'll be posting it on my sub if possible)

If you sign up to Rakuten you can knock off 5% with cashback as well. And yes I think with that the 1TB SN750 isn't a bad deal. You just can find cheaper 1TB drives that match or exceed it for everyday use.

 

[Fallengod]

Yeah. SN550 was in stock for a day a few days ago. I stupidly passed on it because it's been cheaper, but I'll be getting one when it comes back in stock. (I'll be posting it on my sub if possible)

If you sign up to Rakuten you can knock off 5% with cashback as well. And yes I think with that the 1TB SN750 isn't a bad deal. You just can find cheaper 1TB drives that match or exceed it for everyday use.

Thanks for the heads up man. I use topcashback.com. westerndigital.com is 7% back there.

 

[NewMaxx]

That works.