sample rates: 48Khz v.s. 96Khz

fire400

Diamond Member
Nov 21, 2005
5,204
21
81
[audigy 2 zs] or [x-fi] output to: audio system(s)

we're not talkin' cheap audio systems, anything from receivers to amps and subs here.

facts or opinions

-thx
 

Tiamat

Lifer
Nov 25, 2003
14,068
5
71
No, you wouldn't get deeper, richer bass. You *could* get better "more airy" highs, sparkle, detail, "life", but in the end, it really comes down to how the source was engineered.

Now that isn't to say that there may be other improvements in addition that help lower the noise floor which may give the illusion of better sound quality across the board.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
You'll get better highs, not better bass. This is where you hear the difference in DVD audio and SACD. Plus better tone because of the higher sampling - better representation of the wave. That's the fact part of it.
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
99,366
17,551
126
Originally posted by: fire400
[audigy 2 zs] or [x-fi] output to: audio system(s)

we're not talkin' cheap audio systems, anything from receivers to amps and subs here.

facts or opinions

-thx

lol, creative = cheap audio system. Nothing after it can fix what creative wrecked.
 

Tiamat

Lifer
Nov 25, 2003
14,068
5
71
Originally posted by: sdifox
Originally posted by: fire400
[audigy 2 zs] or [x-fi] output to: audio system(s)

we're not talkin' cheap audio systems, anything from receivers to amps and subs here.

facts or opinions

-thx

lol, creative = cheap audio system. Nothing after it can fix what creative wrecked.

I haven't had any problems with their E-MU line...
 

CKent

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
9,020
0
0
Audigy 2 resamples everything to 48khz. X-fi is sub-par for sound quality as well, though not quite as much of a joke as the Audigies. Creative is shit and should be avoided.

As far as 48 vs 96, you'd need excellent equipment and ears, and even then the difference would be very subtle. I've heard the biggest difference is in the soundstage; that redbook CDs are either left, right or center, while SACD / DVDA have much better instrument placement. It comes down to recording quality though, 99% of which is complete shit in this day and age :(
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
CKent, you don't need really nice stereo to hear the difference in high resolution recordings. All the intruments sound more accurate - cymbols don't sound like "sssssssst"...more of an accurate "splash". Horns, vocals, strings are spooky real, etc.
 

Minerva

Platinum Member
Nov 18, 1999
2,134
25
91
If you use creative and receiver than no difference other than more storage space. Also if you're playing back recordings of most popular music it will matter little to your ears.

Even really good interfaces like Motu and Event are often modded by purists that want the best sound but they are also recording at 24/192 and want the best quality samples. Again for recording not playing back cd/sacd/dvd-a etc.
 

Minerva

Platinum Member
Nov 18, 1999
2,134
25
91
Originally posted by: spidey07
CKent, you don't need really nice stereo to hear the difference in high resolution recordings. All the intruments sound more accurate - cymbols don't sound like "sssssssst"...more of an accurate "splash". Horns, vocals, strings are spooky real, etc.

Sample frequency has nothing to do with resolution.

 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
99,366
17,551
126
Originally posted by: Tiamat
Originally posted by: sdifox
Originally posted by: fire400
[audigy 2 zs] or [x-fi] output to: audio system(s)

we're not talkin' cheap audio systems, anything from receivers to amps and subs here.

facts or opinions

-thx

lol, creative = cheap audio system. Nothing after it can fix what creative wrecked.

I haven't had any problems with their E-MU line...

I am still bitter about CL buying e-mu.
 

CKent

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
9,020
0
0
Originally posted by: spidey07
CKent, you don't need really nice stereo to hear the difference in high resolution recordings. All the intruments sound more accurate - cymbols don't sound like "sssssssst"...more of an accurate "splash". Horns, vocals, strings are spooky real, etc.

I have a few 96khz recordings. I can a/b them because the sources are different (vinyl for my 96khz), but I'm not sure I could with the same source. When talking about the difference between 48khz and 96khz, the recording quality is going to be a big factor as well, so say... Pink Floyd might show a difference whereas Britney Spears might not (you might puke sooner listening in 96khz :laugh: ).

Still you've brought up an interesting point. I'm going to downsample some of my 96khz stuff to 48 (or 44.1, whatever) in audacity and see if I can reliably a/b it through my speakers and various headphones. My sound card (Xonar DX) can playback at 44.1, 48 and 96 (and even 192 for that matter), and with kernel streaming I'll have bit-perfect playback so that won't be a factor. I'll post again once I've had a chance to do it.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Give it a shot, IMHO cymbals are where you'll really notice it at first. But like you already know, it's going to depend on your source/recording.
 

CKent

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
9,020
0
0
Well, that was fun.

Background: I have a Xonar DX sound card. I set it to 192khz playback for all testing, since there's no way to automatically match it to the audio being played. I used foobar2000 with the abx component and, as always, kernel streaming.

My gear is Creative Gigaworks speakers 5.1s circa 2004 (rebadged Cambridge), Grado sr60s with ~200 hours burnin, Sennheiser hd280s with thousands of hours of burnin, Shure e2cs with ~200 hours burnin. Nothing great by a long shot, but nothing too horrible.

Music: Tool's Prison Sex, Pink Floyd's Wish You Were Here. Both 24bit 96khz vinyl rips, both converted to 16bit 44.1khz using Audacity. Would have loved to try this with sacd, but alas I don't have an sacd player (or a receiver, or good speakers, or any booze :(, etc.) I'd also love to try this with a really nice headphone setup. I'm considering some 580s / 600s / 650s and a solid amp to go with them, but for now I'm slummin' it :(

Prison Sex - I couldn't tell a difference on any equipment, abxs averaged 50%.

Wish You Were Here - I went 5/6 with the Grados, 5/6 with the Senns and 4/6 with the speakers. I think I could have been 100%, but it got a bit tiring, I'm used to chilling and enjoying my music, not comparing it over and over :p Shures were indeterminate at around 50%.

Differences were very subtle and possibly imagined, with the 24/96 having perhaps a little more depth and realism.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
CKent,

Cool! Thanks for the trial. I will say this, IMHO tool's recordings are very, very bad. Shame really as I love them.

Try listening to some SACD/DVD-A to be really blown away.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Originally posted by: Minerva
Originally posted by: spidey07
CKent, you don't need really nice stereo to hear the difference in high resolution recordings. All the intruments sound more accurate - cymbols don't sound like "sssssssst"...more of an accurate "splash". Horns, vocals, strings are spooky real, etc.

Sample frequency has nothing to do with resolution.

I never liked nyquist nor do I agree with his BS theory. Sample frequency has everything to do with resolution (in time) and reproducing the actual waveform.

That's why analog recording still rules. Record the wave, not an interpretation of it.

 

CKent

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
9,020
0
0
Originally posted by: spidey07
CKent,

Cool! Thanks for the trial. I will say this, IMHO tool's recordings are very, very bad. Shame really as I love them.

Try listening to some SACD/DVD-A to be really blown away.

It's funny, I never thought Tool's recordings were spectacular either, though I didn't think they were bad, just unremarkable. Most audiophiles agree they're very good though. A while back someone here sent me this link describing the recording of 10,000 days, it was a good read. I still haven't given the album a good listening in a while though.

I'd love to have a listen to sacd/dvda, but I just can't justify the cost for now, it seems way too much for the return. Maybe someday. I have no doubt it would sound better and with a bigger difference vs. 16/44 than the vinyl stuff I have.
 

Howard

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
47,982
11
81
If the only variable is sample rate, the bass will not change at all.

spidey, come up with something as fundamental as his theorem and we'll talk. Even though it isn't perfect, it's pretty damn close.

Also, food for thought.
 

thomsbrain

Lifer
Dec 4, 2001
18,148
1
0
To quickly answer the OP: No, sampling rate will not likely affect your perception of bass because the waves require less detail to accurately reproduce.

The following applies to "regular" PCM audio:

Sampling frequency absolutely has an impact on resolution. In terms of accurately depicting a waveform, imagine it being visualized on an LCD screen. In a perfect world, sample rate is your horizontal resolution. Bit depth is your vertical resolution. More on this later.

That said, from my own subjective experiments in making recordings at different sampling rates and bit depths, I can say that moving to 24-bit from 16-bit makes a bigger difference in perceived sound quality than increasing sampling rates. Regardless of sound/sampling frequency, an increase in bit depth will always yield a more accurate representation of the amplitude of the wave at each sample's moment in time. Because we are talking about a finite dynamic range, all of which is theoretically audible to the human ear, increasing resolution within that range should be noticeable as long as your ears and brain are good enough to capitalize on it.

But a 44.1 kHz sampling rate is capable of capturing a wave up to 22.05 kHz, and normal adult humans can't even hear that high. If you assume completely error and jitter-free conversions, then 44.1 kHz is theoretically enough to provide all the resolution necessary to capture the entire range of human frequency perception. Therefore higher sampling rates do not increase our perceived resolution of the audio. Theoretically, that is.

Go back to the LCD TV analogy. Raising sampling rates would be akin to increasing the horizontal resolution. But imagine that on top of the screen, there are little strips of black paper that go right in between each column of pixels at "44.1 kHz." The strips represent the frequency limits of your hearing. The strips don't cover any pixels at 44.1, so you can still see each and every pixel on the TV. But now double the resolution to "88.2 kHz." Now there is a second column of pixels underneath each strip of paper. But because the paper is there, you don't see the new pixels. The picture looks exactly the same as before. Unlike increased bit depth, the increase in frequency resolution was all made outside the limits of your perception.

HOWEVER, the above analogy makes assumptions that are NOT true in the real world. It assumes that the converters and clocks are 100% accurate and error free. This is not true, and varies depending on the quality of the components. Go back to our TV. We can simulate jitter and errors by randomly moving our columns of pixels. Now some of the columns of pixels are being partially covered by the paper strips, and there are places between the strips that aren't fully filled by pixels. Even to our eyes, the TV doesn't look as clear as it should anymore. That's a real-world playback of a 44.1 recording. Jump again to 88.2 kHz. Now, because we have doubled the resolution, all those gaps and errors are filled in with replacement pixels. A column of pixels may be a bit off, but that new second column is there to fill in the gaps and smooth the mistakes. Even though the TV technically has reproduction errors, it still looks great to us, because the errors are now too small for us to perceive.

That's why in the real world, and especially with lower-grade recording and playback equipment, a higher sampling rate DOES improve sound quality. It reduces our perception of errors in sampling timing and accuracy by making them smaller than we can perceive. It is also why upgrading converters, or even just upgrading the CLOCK that controls the converters (improving timing accuracy) can have the same impact on perceived quality. That's why they make clocks for recording studios that can cost thousands of dollars alone. If you have errors, you can either get rid of them or make them smaller, and either way, it will sound better.
 

Howard

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
47,982
11
81
Originally posted by: thomsbrain
To quickly answer the OP: No, sampling rate will not likely affect your perception of bass because the waves require less detail to accurately reproduce.

The following applies to "regular" PCM audio:

Sampling frequency absolutely has an impact on resolution. In terms of accurately depicting a waveform, imagine it being visualized on an LCD screen. In a perfect world, sample rate is your horizontal resolution. Bit depth is your vertical resolution. More on this later.
Only bit depth is resolution, unless you want to stretch the terminology.
 

thomsbrain

Lifer
Dec 4, 2001
18,148
1
0
Originally posted by: Howard
Originally posted by: thomsbrain
To quickly answer the OP: No, sampling rate will not likely affect your perception of bass because the waves require less detail to accurately reproduce.

The following applies to "regular" PCM audio:

Sampling frequency absolutely has an impact on resolution. In terms of accurately depicting a waveform, imagine it being visualized on an LCD screen. In a perfect world, sample rate is your horizontal resolution. Bit depth is your vertical resolution. More on this later.
Only bit depth is resolution, unless you want to stretch the terminology.

I do want to stretch it. ;)

It is "resolution" in time, increasing detail in reproduction of the frequency of the wave. "Refresh rate" might be a more direct analogy on a TV, but since we're talking about modeling a waveform's amplitude and frequency (x and y axis), I just used horizontal and vertical resolution. I'm not really sure what other word one would use to describe greater detail in the digital realm.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Originally posted by: Howard
If the only variable is sample rate, the bass will not change at all.

spidey, come up with something as fundamental as his theorem and we'll talk. Even though it isn't perfect, it's pretty damn close.

Also, food for thought.

If you're telling me you can accurately reproduce a waveform from two samples then I have a bridge to sell you. There's a reason CDs sound so bad and it's his fubarred theorem that is the reason.
 

Howard

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
47,982
11
81
Originally posted by: thomsbrain
Originally posted by: Howard
Originally posted by: thomsbrain
To quickly answer the OP: No, sampling rate will not likely affect your perception of bass because the waves require less detail to accurately reproduce.

The following applies to "regular" PCM audio:

Sampling frequency absolutely has an impact on resolution. In terms of accurately depicting a waveform, imagine it being visualized on an LCD screen. In a perfect world, sample rate is your horizontal resolution. Bit depth is your vertical resolution. More on this later.
Only bit depth is resolution, unless you want to stretch the terminology.

I do want to stretch it. ;)

It is "resolution" in time, increasing detail in reproduction of the frequency of the wave. "Refresh rate" might be a more direct analogy on a TV, but since we're talking about modeling a waveform's amplitude and frequency (x and y axis), I just used horizontal and vertical resolution. I'm not really sure what other word one would use to describe greater detail in the digital realm.
"Accuracy" seems popular enough in the audiophile world.
 

Howard

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
47,982
11
81
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: Howard
If the only variable is sample rate, the bass will not change at all.

spidey, come up with something as fundamental as his theorem and we'll talk. Even though it isn't perfect, it's pretty damn close.

Also, food for thought.

If you're telling me you can accurately reproduce a waveform from two samples then I have a bridge to sell you. There's a reason CDs sound so bad and it's his fubarred theorem that is the reason.
When did I ever say that you could reproduce a waveform with two samples? I said the results are "pretty close" but not exact. Besides, IIRC most 44.1kHz sources roll off before 22kHz anyway.

EDIT: Jeez, I'm arguing with you over a straw man that you built up. What's next, my agreement that CDs sound bad? Screw off.