Salary negotiation

[Farang]

A lot of threads on this lately so I thought I'd post my own.

Was conditionally offered a job (they requested a letter of recommendation from my current employer).

I responded that I could not accept an offer with a precondition. And could I get details of the offer (the initial one was very vague).

They said let's table the condition for now, here is a the compensation package (very detailed and professionally put together).

I counter for a wage 13% higher, what they offered was at the absolute bottom of the range and a lateral move for me financially.

They explain why they set the range there, a bad reason (because they haven't actually worked with me yet--not relevant when determining the salary for a position). Would I please justify the higher wage.

I justify the higher wage, in detail.

They sent another set of questions, seemingly regressing back to the interview stage. Another precondition is casually offered (they want me to meet one of their advisers before we "seal the deal.")

These are not HR professionals I'm dealing with, so I've been patient. At this point its gone on for over two weeks and I'm ready to withdraw my application. There have been no changes to their initial offer, which they had said was very negotiable.

Writing this all out makes me feel kind of dumb for not withdrawing earlier. WWYD? It cost me about $50 to drive out there for the interview, so my attitude is to get my moneys worth and drag it out, see what happens, not worried about wasting their time because I've already wasted a lot more.

UPDATE: They accepted my counteroffer, and I accepted their acceptance.

 

[spidey07]

They're feeling you out to see how much you'll bend trying to see if they have the upper hand, which it sounds like they don't. Stay firm, respectful and courteous and stress that you are interested in the position. You have them right where you want them - they obviously want you, now it's all about the money. You have them hooked, now use this to your advantage.

You holding out only makes them want you more and willing to pay more.

Think of it like buying a car. You're the car. They love the car and will pay for it. It's the same as a home buyer that falls in love with a house. It's an emotional decision at this point for them and they don't even realize it. Go read "how to make 1000 dollars a minute" and it explains it all.

 

[JS80]

As soon as they rejected my counter I would have replied: please withdraw my application.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

They're feeling you out to see how much you'll bend trying to see if they have the upper hand, which it sounds like they don't. Stay firm, respectful and courteous and stress that you are interested in the position. You have them right where you want them - they obviously want you, now it's all about the money. You have them hooked, now use this to your advantage.

This, and I'd like to add, you have a job currently (that's what I understood from your lateral move comment -- correct?) so you have no reason to accept the job offer if the pay is the same UNLESS the benefits are wildly better.

Spidey is right -- you are in the driver's seat. Companies like to push, intimidate, and act as if they're doing you a favor, but remember, you're not desperate and can afford to be picky. Companies also like to take advantage of poor economic times to get cheap employees.

And LOL at the "We haven't worked with you before" excuse. What kind of crap is that? Personally, I would've looked at the guy and said "And I've not worked with your company either, but I DO know the going rate for someone with my credentials and experience."

You holding out only makes them want you more and willing to pay more.

It will come to a "shit or get off the pot" moment sooner or later, so tread carefully initially. If you get fed up with them, just say "Here is what it will take and thanks for your time." If they walk, who cares?

 

[IndyColtsFan]

As soon as they rejected my counter I would have replied: please withdraw my application.

I can see the logic here as well. That happened when I bought my house -- I made an offer, the seller countered with their original asking price and said they were "insulted." I said "See you, have fun trying to sell a house you've had on the market over a year." In this case though, the seller called back within a week begging to negotiate and I got the house for the original price I targeted.

The fact that they didn't even offer to budge on the salary isn't a good sign. Play hard ball with them -- I don't think you have anything to lose.

EDIT: For lulz, this is how I dealt with a rude company during the interview process -- I still laugh whenever I think about it. That's why it is SO MUCH BETTER to interview for jobs when you are employed, because you don't have to take an ounce of shit from anyone:

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=30201386&postcount=46351

 

[Farang]

I should say they never explicitly rejected my offer. They asked for justification then sort of went on a detour in asking additional questions. I think the best case scenario is that this detour is my re interviewing for the position at the higher wage I asked for.

Basically for me this is a big step up professionally, but entails a lot of risk, so I need the financial reward to be there as well.

Thanks for the replies. This whole situation has seemed bizarre to me, made me think of them as erratic and unprofessional, but maybe its just part of the game.

edit: and they did not "not" offer to budge on salary. they just said they need to justify it. no explicit rejections, but in 2 weeks I haven't gained anything either.

 

[spidey07]

<snip>

It will come to a "shit or get off the pot" moment sooner or later, so tread carefully initially. If you get fed up with them, just say "Here is what it will take and thanks for your time." If they walk, who cares?

Yep. OP can always give a "best and final" response. Meaning negotiations are done, this is what it will take, company can decide to take it or leave it. The whole idea of a best and final offer works both ways. Make sure to use those exact words "best and final", it's the end game to negotiations.

And remember, you don't want to take a lateral move compensation wise, you want at least 20&#37; (without EVER letting them know what you currently make, NEVER, EVER, EVER-NEVER tell them what you make). They must CONVINCE you that leaving your secure position and career path with established relationships is worth the risk of jumping. And with that risk means you want more money, be it in salary, bonus, extra retirement, extra vacation, whatever, total compensation is what you're going for.

 

[Wyndru]

I had a state job offered to me last year and I was the only person interviewed that had even passed the civil service exam, so essentially I was the only person they could hire. I countered their offer (the rate they offered was 10k less than I was making currently), and they explained that the pension and benefits made up the difference. I still held my ground and they actually said no. With their limited budget they would rather re-interview than work with me (even though the test I took is only available once every 1-2 years).

I agree with what has been said above, but be careful, don't always assume that they will work with you, especially now that jobs are hard to come by.

 

[Farang]

I'm not too worried about being careful because what they offered me is sort of 50/50 as to whether I want it or not. Them taking that away just makes the decision for me.

I like the idea of the best and final offer. I feel like at this point the whole process is starting to become detrimental to our working relationship. These people will be my direct superiors. I've got nothing to lose by tossing it out there, instead of just withdrawing.

 

[spidey07]

I'm not too worried about being careful because what they offered me is sort of 50/50 as to whether I want it or not. Them taking that away just makes the decision for me.

I like the idea of the best and final offer. I feel like at this point the whole process is starting to become detrimental to our working relationship. These people will be my direct superiors. I've got nothing to lose by tossing it out there, instead of just withdrawing.

Oh hell, if you're to that point then go the best and final route and shoot for the moon. They may even bite. There are two really good outcomes to this approach:

1) You learn more about what you're worth if they accept to your terms and you can use this next time, don't have to accept the job
2) You make a lot more money and move your career further if you accept

win/win

The only bad outcome is they say they can't do it, but even that is good as you'll still learn what you're really worth. You're in the power position, now use it.

 

[JS80]

Hell, I would go as far as re-counter with a final offer much higher than your original counter. For the lulz.

 

[spidey07]

Hell, I would go as far as re-counter with a final offer much higher than your original counter. For the lulz.

Don't laugh, that's how I got my last 3 jobs. Basically they gave me an offer I could not refuse. They went over the top so to say. I made best and final and they went above that.

It's all about positioning.

 

[Farang]

I ran into them at a professional conference (they approached me), sidestepped the negotiations because it was a festival kind of thing and not really the place for it.

Anyway the owner got in touch with me and wants to have me come out again and give me a tour of the area and meet with their business consultant and HR consultant. Cost to me is about $40 (gas), but I get a free dinner out of it and I can make a vacation out of it (recreational area) so its basically a wash.

Best I can tell I'm re-interviewing for the higher rate, or they just want to get to know me better before offering the higher rate. We're a small industry and just the fact that we run in the same circles and I currently work for a company that is where they want to be, I think means I'm a unique candidate that they will have trouble finding. Even if its entry level.

So I think I'll head out there and basically only seal the deal in person if they accept my counter. Anything less I'll ask for time to think it over and likely reject.

 

[EagleKeeper]

If they want the lower number; split the difference, if they agree for a review after 6 months and then bump you to what you are asking.

I did that with an employer many moons ago. They offered 48K; I wanted 56K.
we settled for 51 with a review in 6 months that put me to 54.

 

[Koing]

You have a job, your a unique candidate in a niche market, you have the power, ask for your figure. If not just sack them off.

This is my strategy. If your worth it and they can't cheap they will pay for it.

Hey did you not interview properly in the first place for the role? It doesn't seem like it from what I read. They spotted you at the conference and went for you right? Or was that the 2nd time?

Good luck and don't let them f0ck you. A mate got a job offer, he asked for more, they shut him down on that, he took the job, a few weeks later before he even started the job he was out for a few drinks with his future team. They got lashed, they told him he could have asked for more even though they rejected down his counter offer. If he had stayed strong he would have gotten it! He was in a tough situation though, his last place was making redundancys so he had to get a job. He is pretty f0cked off at the situation and is now looking for another job...

Koing

 

[JS80]

If they want the lower number; split the difference, if they agree for a review after 6 months and then bump you to what you are asking.

I did that with an employer many moons ago. They offered 48K; I wanted 56K.
we settled for 51 with a review in 6 months that put me to 54.

I would have gone with "hire me at $56k if I don't bring you the value in 6 months you can fire me."

 

[PricklyPete]

I would have gone with "hire me at $56k if I don't bring you the value in 6 months you can fire me."

Agreed.

OP, you have the power in this scenario. Go do the interview ($40 is nothing in the long run). Show interest, but play it cool. I think you already have the right idea.

 

[Farang]

UPDATE: Met with them again, this time with some of their business advisers. A 4-on-1 interview, I usually suck at this sort of thing, but I nailed it. One of the advisers literally told the owner, in reference to me, that 'good owners hire people that are smarter than they are.' They accepted my counteroffer, and I accepted their acceptance.

Thanks for all the helpful tips. Kind of scary, this job will be very challenging, but I'm happy to have my first "real" job.

 

[PricklyPete]

Congrats!

 

[edro]

Hooray for new opportunities and more monies!

 

[olds]

...
UPDATE: They accepted my counteroffer, and I accepted their acceptance.

I accept your acceptance of their acceptance.

 

[rcpratt]

Congrats.

 

[Tweak155]

Grats dude. I'm in a similar situation.

While not a lateral move for me financially, it does require relocation and loss of employment for my wife so it is a serious matter.

I really think their offer was quite respectable however I plan on asking for about 8&#37; more given the differences of my current position and what I'll be moving into.

I really hope they take it. That 8% makes a difference to me over 3-5 years.