Salary negotiation tips?

[soccerballtux]

This has turned out longer than I thought it would be; Cliffs at the bottom, thanks for reading the full thing if you do

So I've proven myself in my coop, get a job offer. Oh the dreaded salary negotiation, walking the fine line between being demandingly selfish, and securing the best deal you can get.

My question is how far you can go, and when you go too far, what happens? Say they offer something like $55k in the southeast US for an EE job. Of whatever they offer is a lowball. So what do you do? Do you flat out say what you think you should get, or do you go over by whatever percentage they lowballed you by, so that you can have room to negotiate down and meet in the median, what you think you should be paid?

I can see both being an option.

Flat out saying what you think you should get takes away the chances for negotiating down, but it allows you to be honest and direct, and if you are being reasonable, they will know you are not BS'ing them and will have to take your offer seriously or leave it, because that's what you said they had to do-- take it or leave it.

However, overstating what you want by the percent they lowballed you by lets you be less direct about it, lets you "negotiate down". Downside is they you risk them thinking "wtf, this guy thinks he is worth 20% more than what we know he is worth" and say "sorry, no." In this scenario, my question is "what happens now?" After "sorry, no" do they give an alternate offer that is higher than their first offer, or are they more likely to say "sorry, no" and hang up because they can't believe you'd ask for 20% more than they think you're worth (what they really think you're worth, not the 80%-of-what-they-think-you're-worth-figure-that-they-initially-offered)?

I ask because I will be graduating with ~50k in student debt I think, and with how the economy is doing...need to ensure I can pay off the debt, etc. I've got 6 or 9 months or whatever from my graduation till I have to start making payments, but I'd rather not use that if I don't have to.

Now, I won't be graduating for a while, probably about a year and a half, due to coop delaying stuff; but I'm asking this because my phonecall for coming back to my coop next semester will be coming up in about a month. I came into this Coop not knowing I could negotiate; they said on the phone "typically $x to (x+2)/hour" and I said "Ok that sounds good", I got the letter quoting at $x and took it. Thought, "oh darn, not $(x+2)", I didn't think to call them up and say "you gave a range of $x to (x+2), I'll take $(x+2)".
So going back this semester I feel the need to negotiate past $(x+2), to make up for not negotiating $(x+2) in the first place, and to negotiate since after this summer semester I'm officially a senior by hours.
I've been somewhat of a noob about this whole thing as well, they wanted to see if I would do another coop term on top of the 2 more I'm already scheduled for. I should have been more hostile when I heard this; it didn't occur to me they're trying to take advantage of my cheap labor. Whatever. I'm learning fast. So now I come to you guys for some opinions. Any help would be great.

Also if it helps for the opinions for how hard I can negotiate, I'm an EE at Georgia Tech. They don't know my GPA, never asked. Only thing they said I needed to improve on was time management/remaining focused on the task. IE not browsing ATOT and /. as much. However, towards the last 1.5months I realized this myself, and began asking everybody for work. When I left the coop last semester I made it clear to them I wanted to be doing more serious work that will supplement my education more than what I have been doing has, which has mostly been testing simple stuff like power supplies and soldering stuff for people. Haven't done any design work at all, not even some simple stuff like a 2" square PCB that we use in one of our products, which I could have either done, or learned by myself how to put together to meet the requirements specified.

CLIFFS
===========
1). Going back to coop for fall, need to negotiate higher pay, because I can
2). Sr now by hours, didn't negotiate when I took the coop, so when they offered $x to (x+2) on the phone and I got $x in writing, didn't call them up and stipulate I wanted $(x+2). So now I feel the need to get to and past $(x+2).
3). EE at Georgia Tech
4). They know I'm a hard worker. I just haven't proven I'm a smart worker (haven't given me a chance). I made clear I wanted to be doing smart people work when I get back, which I am either capable of, or capable of learning, on my own, how to do.
5). Need information on how to negotiate to and past $(x+2), what happens if they simply say "no" to my offer; do they hang up? Etc. Need to know if I should highball counter their lowball, or simply toss them the level ball and say "no" until they meet me at that price.
6). Also need to know how much/what percent they typically lowball you by?
7). THANKS!

 

[QED]

Do you have another job offer lined up? How else do you know what a lowball offer is for your line of work, level of experience, and location?

If you don't have another job lined up, and don't have any basis for how much out-of-college EE's get paid in your neck of the woods, why would you expect them to increase their offer to you?

 

[soccerballtux]

Originally posted by: QED
Do you have another job offer lined up? How else do you know what a lowball offer is for your line of work, level of experience, and location?

If you don't have another job lined up, and don't have any basis for how much out-of-college EE's get paid in your neck of the woods, why would you expect them to increase their offer to you?

not during my coop no.
I figure it's a lowball because, well, I assumed the potential employer always lowballs you. From everyone I've talked to this is the case. IE, you should always negotiate.

"My neck of the woods" the EE salary is a bit lower than the west, starting around $55k I think. Don't know how it works for a coop who is senior by hours though. They never told us we should be negotiating pay with our coop, most students here think it's a take it or leave it offer and so everyone just takes it.

 

[fishmonger12]

My understanding of fresh out of college grads is there isn't much room for negotiation. There's nothing that substantially separates you from any other fresh college grad with coop experience (I understand this is quite common in engineering), and there are relatively large amounts of fresh graduates, making you easily replaceable.

You might be able to get another grand or so, but I'm not sure it's worth the risk, especially if you don't have any other offers lined up.

And I think before you do this you need to be absolutely sure you're getting low balled.

http://swz.salary.com/salarywi...NarrowDesc=Engineering

55k would be slightly better than average, according to this crude bell curve.

 

[RaistlinZ]

I also forsee major backfiring going on if you try to negotiate with no basis for "X+2" and no backup job offer to show them that you're worth "X+2".

If the cost of hiring and training a new grad is cheaper than the "+2" you're asking for they'll probably replace you with somoene willing to work for "X" or less.

 

[Savij]

Originally posted by: fishmonger12
My understanding of fresh out of college grads is there isn't much room for negotiation. There's nothing that substantially separates you from any other fresh college grad with coop experience (I understand this is quite common in engineering), and there are relatively large amounts of fresh graduates, making you easily replaceable.

You might be able to get another grand or so, but I'm not sure it's worth the risk, especially if you don't have any other offers lined up.

And I think before you do this you need to be absolutely sure you're getting low balled.

http://swz.salary.com/salarywi...NarrowDesc=Engineering

55k would be slightly better than average, according to this crude bell curve.

He's probably not getting lowballed, but there is probably room for negotiation.

 

[PClark99]

I wouldn't haggle too much, be happy you are getting an offer.

From my experience they will bring you in a little on the low side but usually they will somewhat make up for it at your first pay raise.

 

[soccerballtux]

Originally posted by: PClark99
I wouldn't haggle too much, be happy you are getting an offer.

From my experience they will bring you in a little on the low side but usually they will somewhat make up for it at your first pay raise.

Hm, when does this happen? Do you mean the usual yearly raise, or the "moving up the ladder" raise where you get a different title?

Thanks.

 

[soccerballtux]

Originally posted by: RaistlinZ
I also forsee major backfiring going on if you try to negotiate with no basis for "X+2" and no backup job offer to show them that you're worth "X+2".

If the cost of hiring and training a new grad is cheaper than the "+2" you're asking for they'll probably replace you with somoene willing to work for "X" or less.

Well my reason for the x+2/hour is that they were already ready to pay me x+2, and I dropped the ball on that one in the initial coop acceptance process.

 

[fisheerman]

With little to no experience and fresh out of college with only one job offer there really is no grounds for negotiations unless they are flat out getting lowballed which it sounds like there are not.

You could try and negotiate some extra leave or alternate schedule "flex time" but I would take the job if you don't have any other job offers.

If you are an outstanding employee the money will come with experience. It just may require you to move.


Bottom line. Take the job. Get a few years experience and then start looking for the $$$$$. You will be in a better position to negotiate.

-fish

 

[soccerballtux]

Thanks for the tips guys.

 

[hofan41]

if you have no other past salary history or other job offers for higher amounts, then you really have no solid argument to be asking for higher pay. even if they were "lowballing" you I do not think you would have much negotiation to do unless you were incurring above average moving expenses on top of that.

I agree with the other guys, get a year of experience under your belt, and if the raise they give you is not what you expect then start looking at other places.

 

[soccerballtux]

Originally posted by: hofan41
if you have no other past salary history or other job offers for higher amounts, then you really have no solid argument to be asking for higher pay. even if they were "lowballing" you I do not think you would have much negotiation to do unless you were incurring above average moving expenses on top of that.

I agree with the other guys, get a year of experience under your belt, and if the raise they give you is not what you expect then start looking at other places.

What kind of raise should you expect for your first raise? Just the yearly? Or are you talking about the promotion raise, where you go from 50k to 70k as a level 2 engineer after a couple years of work?

 

[Scarpozzi]

Salaray Negotiation 101

1. Wear a Tie.
2. Make Eye Contact
3. Pack a Chainsaw

 

[hofan41]

Originally posted by: soccerballtux
What kind of raise should you expect for your first raise? Just the yearly? Or are you talking about the promotion raise, where you go from 50k to 70k as a level 2 engineer after a couple years of work?

a realistic expected annual raise would be somewhere in the 3-7% range. sometimes if you do an exemplary job your company may choose to give you an even higher raise.

(you may actually need to wait for two raise periods since if they do raises beginning of the year you'll only get a pro-rated raise next january)

unfortunately, however, the largest raise you can receive would be the one you get by leaving for another company. you can generally find another company willing to bump your salary by at least 10% to join them.

basically just set a realistic goal for yourself and if the raise they give you after having worked for one FULL year does not meet the goal, begin looking for other jobs. remember to always keep your resume updated and you'll be ready when the opportunity comes.

 

[PClark99]

Originally posted by: soccerballtux

Originally posted by: PClark99
I wouldn't haggle too much, be happy you are getting an offer.

From my experience they will bring you in a little on the low side but usually they will somewhat make up for it at your first pay raise.

Hm, when does this happen? Do you mean the usual yearly raise, or the "moving up the ladder" raise where you get a different title?

Thanks.

Usually salary raises happen annually, but if you kick ass or get promoted you might get one earlier.

Also in the past I have gotten raises by attrition, someone in my department leaves and the bump us 5% as incentive to stay and also to account for the extra work we have to do when they don't replace the guy that left.