Sadly, many now think the military is for losers

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
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'Why aren't you in Iraq?" (Statesman.com) That's the question I posed recently to a group of undergraduates at the University of Texas, an honors class studying the legal aspects of the war on terrorism.

I tried to ask this without antagonism or implicit criticism, but the question appeared to unsettle the students anyway. None of them had given military service much thought. All of them were against the war in Iraq. They told me they support the troops, but not the war itself. They won't sign up to fight a war they consider illegal and a mistake.

Our conversation took place shortly after U.S. military deaths in Iraq passed 2,000. The war is now increasingly unpopular with all elements of American society, and disaffection with the war is having a big impact on military recruiting.

This year the Army missed its recruiting targets for the first time since 1999, and the pool of people signed up and waiting to be inducted is at its lowest level ever. The Pentagon increased the eligible age for enlistment from 39 to 42 this year, and there is now a reluctant discussion within the military about opening enlistment to high school dropouts. Last week, the Washington Post featured a detailed look at the current distribution of recruits. It showed that the majority are coming from rural and economically distressed regions. Only 14 percent are from urban areas.

One UT student said during our conversation that her friends regard the military as something for people "with no other options," and that, because of the war in Iraq, military service is now considered "dishonorable." I was reminded that recently, while I sat in an Austin theater waiting for a movie to start and the ads featured a pitch from the Marines, some people in the audience booed.

The war in Iraq is not only vexing military officials and political leaders as it drags on and chews up billions of dollars and the lives and health of American troops. Now, not unlike the war in Vietnam, the Iraq war is fracturing the country over the relationship between civilians and the military. The military hoped to recover its status after Vietnam by ending the draft and stressing the positive benefits of service ? job training, discipline, leadership experience and an egalitarian ethic that made the military the model institution for race relations. The slogan "Be All That You Can Be" communicated that message, and before the war in Iraq, it worked.

There was a burst of enlistment after Sept. 11, 2001, when young people were inspired by patriotism to sign up. But the war in Iraq has drained that motivation from young Americans, and also from a growing number of parents, including many people who voted for President Bush.

In August, the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette ran a story about a Marine recruiter who visited a home in an affluent neighborhood where a teenager had expressed interest in joining the Marines. The recruiter was welcomed warmly by the teenager's mother ? until the reason for the visit was revealed. "Military service isn't for our son. It isn't for our kind of people," she told the recruiter.

Throughout the country, middle-class parents are blocking recruiters or discouraging their sons and daughters from considering military service. This became a running storyline in Doonesbury, the cartoon strip, as Mike Doonesbury pleaded with his daughter to ignore the attentions of a military recruiter. The No Child Left Behind Act contains a provision that allows the military access to large amounts of information about young people in school, and parents are fighting this access ? even the national PTA has come out against this feature of the law.

It's understandable that young people would want to avoid Iraq, and that their parents would want them to stay home. This personal resistance is the new form of anti-war protest, and it's far more widespread than most Americans understand.

But there is something ominously wrong with a democratic nation that protects its affluent youth from harm, and from service, while putting disadvantaged young people into a meat grinder overseas. There is something disturbing about a nation that beats the drum of patriotism but lets its most privileged young people believe that military service is for losers.

It also is unforgivably hypocritical for people to support this war, this president and his economic policies ? thus victimizing the poor twice over ? while at the same time shielding their own children from the sacrifices others are making. You can't claim to support the troops if you feel that the troops are beneath you in status or that your own children are too valuable for military service.

Either we're all in this together, or we should get the hell out. We can't have it both ways.



Awful lot of young folk in here, why are you not serving?
 

TheNoblePlatypus

Senior member
Dec 18, 2001
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Why? I don't want to have the possibility of being killed. I'm pretty partial to this current life.



Unless you were just aiming this at the conservatives on the boards to rouse some rabbles, again.
 

TNM93

Senior member
Aug 13, 2005
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Originally posted by: Steeplerot

It also is unforgivably hypocritical for people to support this war, this president and his economic policies ? thus victimizing the poor twice over ? while at the same time shielding their own children from the sacrifices others are making. You can't claim to support the troops if you feel that the troops are beneath you in status or that your own children are too valuable for military service.

Either we're all in this together, or we should get the hell out. We can't have it both ways.

Awful lot of young folk in here, why are you not serving?

I agree with you on some points, disagree on others, and I come from a military background. As far as the middle class not wanting their children to serve in the military at this time, that's perfectly normal, given what's going on in Iraq. During peacetime, more people consider the military a viable option. The upper class, in general, has always looked down at the miltary or used them for their own gain. Nothing new there.

I think people have also become tired of conflict. It seems we have one every 3-5 years, as we try to police the world. This is not how the military should be used and one of the prime reasons why people are no longer drawn to it. I also think it's unfortunate that the renewed sense of unity following 9-11 was wasted on Iraq. Sadly, many people argue for the war on the basis that the president says it's for a just cause. They never form their own opinions, just follow the opinions of others. This sort of blind patriotism is what we paid for during Vietnam. I guess we are still paying for it to a degree.

As far as what people think of the military, I do agree with you on the notion that many think it's a sort of last resort option. However, once you serve, you are exposed to things that you probably would never be exposed to, had you not joined. There is nothing wrong with the military. Many people I've known have joined the military, and they are just like anybody else. I tried to join years ago, but was denied due to health reasons. This was before 9-11.
 

MicroChrome

Senior member
Mar 8, 2005
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Already serverd and I oppose the war, Err, that is if you want to call it war... And the military is for losers and poor people. If I had a kid and he/she wanted to join, it would be up to them but I would try to talk them out of it just because what I now know.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
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Well, I come here to discuss things but they do ask for it at times, and I am a generous soul. ;)

Seriously though my poll aside (which was a afterthought) do you see the military nowdays as being for people without options?

I remember a military that was pretty picky, now they are discussing getting people GED's who drop out and getting them enlisted. :shocked:
 

TNM93

Senior member
Aug 13, 2005
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Originally posted by: MicroChrome
And the military is for losers and poor people.

MMMkay. Troll much? Funny you say that the military is full of poor people, considering I've known many military people, and they were all pretty much middle class. As far as the loser comment, go to hell.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
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Originally posted by: TNM93
Originally posted by: MicroChrome
And the military is for losers and poor people.

MMMkay. Troll much? Funny you say that the military is full of poor people considering I've known many military people, and they were all pretty much middle class. As far as the loser comment, go to hell.


Well, I am not going to generalize everyone but the people I know in iraq right now are pretty much meth addicts with no other choice, so they joined the army/af once they got fed up with couchsurfing/being fvckups.

Edit: Except one friend who is just dirt poor from n carolina and joined to support his new family.
 

MicroChrome

Senior member
Mar 8, 2005
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Heck. What about enlisting Illegal Mexicans to fight our war? We are already spending gobs of $$ ... Psst, hey friend? Fight our war and we give you green card!!! What's a few more billion to bribe another nation to help fight a war for us?

Troll? I know too. Considering I was in myself for 8 years. If that's the case then why are MOST of the recruiters focusing on poor parts of the nation? This post was about enlisting and not about the tards that already DID enlist. Figure out how to read then get back to us.


Text
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
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Originally posted by: MicroChrome
Heck. What about enlisting Illegal Mexicans to fight our war?

I think haliburton already does that to get mercs/convoy drivers.

-In other words the real crap work

 

TNM93

Senior member
Aug 13, 2005
965
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Originally posted by: MicroChrome

Troll? I know too. Considering I was in myself for 8 years. If that's the case then why are MOST of the recruiters focusing on poor parts of the nation? This post was about enlisting and not about the tards that already DID enlist. Figure out how to read then get back to us.

Text

Uh, I mentioned people's backgrounds prior to enlisting. I think you need to figure out how to read.
 

Polish3d

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2005
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I think that article is a little unrealistic and skewed, I don't know anyone who would say "We're not those kind of people" regarding the military. Stupid article.


Why do less join? Well not becuase we have somehow lost the will, or another conspiracy by the rich (which btw liberals seem to have the worst inferiority complex about), it's because we see two things in the news, that there is no moral authority for Iraq, and everyday more soldiers die.

I contacted a recruiter for the reserves here in my state, they were cool, sent a DVD and watch, but it seems even in the reserves now there is almost no way I could finish out school this year and in 2006.

I'd like to join the Army or the Air Force, but to be straight I'm going to also try to use some of the college money I might get to go to a better law school. This is a little bit away for now so its not the right time.

BTW, I am upper middle class and have no serious financial motivation to go, my dad makes around 100k per year and my mom and my stepdad make more than double that combined. I can go to law school without the military as I should have scholarships and help from parents possibly too

(Note, I pay for much of my own stuff, inc. car and the rig in my signature, I earned every penny I put into it selling newspaper subscriptions.)



BTW, to Steeplerot, lately liberals have really been hammering on the supposed point that Republicans are hateful bigots, but in all honesty, the most bitter, vicious, cynical and absolutely HATEFUL people I have come across have been liberals.

Where there once was liberal optimisim, there is now pessimism, jealousy, impotence and hatred.

Another reaons why liberalism as it exists in America today is wholly unattractive.
 

Polish3d

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2005
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I'm also never impressed by non-veterans challenging other non-veterans to do something they would not.


I never heard much bitching about "Join up Republicans!" when we were in Afghanistan, leftists seem to pull that out only when its a war they disagree with (or changed their mind on 1/2 way through), which makes the moral position they are taking a false one.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,418
5,962
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The aricle makes many good points. Points that have been posted here numerous times for many years.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,418
5,962
126
Originally posted by: Sixtyfour
Add options "im a terrorist" and "Im a foreigner"

:)

Ya, I'd actually vote then, but which one would be the correct choice? hmmm....;) :D
 

jackschmittusa

Diamond Member
Apr 16, 2003
5,972
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Didn't vote because it's "already served and too old to serve again", as well as "Why would I want to serve in this crappy war."

When I enlisted in the '60s, they took HS dropouts; many judges gave juvenile offenders the choice of jail or enlistment, and many people got liberal arts degrees just to get deferments.

We had a large percentage of people from both the lower end of the economic classes and of the criminal class. This was of a war that was very unpopular, such as we have now.

One of the reasons that I joined up was out of a sense of patriotism. I was a subscriber to the "Domino Theory" at the time, and I was unaware thet The Gulf of Tonkin Incedent was concoted, having been lied to by the current Administration of the time. Kind of hard to sell the patriotic, defender of the country angle now for enlistment when so many know that the whole pretext for the war is based on lies.

One of my 4 kids (the youngest) has served, and I would counsel against any of the others serving at this time.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Once again, Frackal flees into the usual denial about liberals being haters, which is OT, anyway...

The whole point of having a large and capable volunteer military is for its deterrent effect, to prevent aggression against the US and our Allies, and to be able to repel such aggression if and when it occurs.

The only problem with having such military is that sooner or later, some damned fool will attempt to use it for other purposes, as is the case in Iraq. Which leads to a lot of problems, particularly since the whole idea depends on voluntary enlistment, and on engaging in actual combat as little as possible...

Part of the reason that the Iraqi adventure is so expensive is that much of the work of the miltary is being done by contractors, at 4X the money, or more... look for that to increase as enlisments drop off... at least mercenaries know why they're there, it's for the money, stupid...
 

Strk

Lifer
Nov 23, 2003
10,197
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Originally posted by: Frackal
I'm also never impressed by non-veterans challenging other non-veterans to do something they would not.


I never heard much bitching about "Join up Republicans!" when we were in Afghanistan, leftists seem to pull that out only when its a war they disagree with (or changed their mind on 1/2 way through), which makes the moral position they are taking a false one.

One war makes sense and the other one does't. One war was against a regime that supported a group that killed 3,000 Americans. The other war was against a regime that had nothing, supported very little and controlled very little.

Frackal, what was your stance on Kosovo and Bosnia?
 

Uhtrinity

Platinum Member
Dec 21, 2003
2,262
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I don't support this war or whatever you call it, never have. Already spent 5 years active duty in the Army and have been out for 10 years. I'm also a single parent of a 3 year old, so there is another more important reason. I don't blame people for being so reluctant to join now, the National guard and reserves have been completely abused by this president, and to a lesser degree the active duty soldiers, marines, and sailors. No wonder recruitment is down.