Saddam's WMDs?

[Whoozyerdaddy]

NY Times

Ever vigilant about coups and fearful of revolt, Mr. Hussein was deeply distrustful of his own commanders and soldiers, the documents show.

He made crucial decisions himself, relied on his sons for military counsel and imposed security measures that had the effect of hobbling his forces. He did that in several ways:

¶The Iraqi dictator was so secretive and kept information so compartmentalized that his top military leaders were stunned when he told them three months before the war that he had no weapons of mass destruction, and they were demoralized because they had counted on hidden stocks of poison gas or germ weapons for the nation's defense.

This is interesting on a couple of fronts...

First the conspiracy front, which relates to a new/revived story floating around about Russian GRU involvement in "scrubbing" Iraq clean of WMDs and moving Saddams stockpiles to Syria and Lebanon. Link 1 Link 2 (I know...)

Second is this: It was all a misunderstanding created by Saddam's actions to comply with weapons inspectors as much as he had to while still maintaining the possibility that he might still have WMDs in an effort to deter the US and keep the Iraqi Shiites under control.

His actions would explain why everyone seemed to think that he still had WMD stockpiles even when inspectors found nothing.

(Continued from the NYT link)

In December 2002, he told his top commanders that Iraq did not possess unconventional arms, like nuclear, biological or chemical weapons, according to the Iraq Survey Group, a task force established by the C.I.A. to investigate what happened to Iraq's weapons programs. Mr. Hussein wanted his officers to know they could not rely on poison gas or germ weapons if war broke out. The disclosure that the cupboard was bare, Mr. Aziz said, sent morale plummeting.

To ensure that Iraq would pass scrutiny by United Nations arms inspectors, Mr. Hussein ordered that they be given the access that they wanted. And he ordered a crash effort to scrub the country so the inspectors would not discover any vestiges of old unconventional weapons, no small concern in a nation that had once amassed an arsenal of chemical weapons, biological agents and Scud missiles, the Iraq survey group report said.

Mr. Hussein's compliance was not complete, though. Iraq's declarations to the United Nations covering what stocks of illicit weapons it had possessed and how it had disposed of them were old and had gaps. And Mr. Hussein would not allow his weapons scientists to leave the country, where United Nations officials could interview them outside the government's control.

Seeking to deter Iran and even enemies at home, the Iraqi dictator's goal was to cooperate with the inspectors while preserving some ambiguity about its unconventional weapons ? a strategy General Hamdani, the Republican Guard commander, later dubbed in a television interview "deterrence by doubt."

That strategy led to mutual misperception. When Secretary of State Colin L. Powell addressed the Security Council in February 2003, he offered evidence from photographs and intercepted communications that the Iraqis were rushing to sanitize suspected weapons sites. Mr. Hussein's efforts to remove any residue from old unconventional weapons programs were viewed by the Americans as efforts to hide the weapons. The very steps the Iraqi government was taking to reduce the prospect of war were used against it, increasing the odds of a military confrontation.

In either case... Whether Saddam screwed himself by trying to maintain ambiguity about the WMD status of Iraq OR there was Russian involvement in sanitizing Iraq of WMDs (A very old accusation brought back into the light by John Shaw)... As more and more information starts to come out, the accusations of outright lying on the part of Dubbya seems to be losing traction.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
NY Times

Ever vigilant about coups and fearful of revolt, Mr. Hussein was deeply distrustful of his own commanders and soldiers, the documents show.

He made crucial decisions himself, relied on his sons for military counsel and imposed security measures that had the effect of hobbling his forces. He did that in several ways:

¶The Iraqi dictator was so secretive and kept information so compartmentalized that his top military leaders were stunned when he told them three months before the war that he had no weapons of mass destruction, and they were demoralized because they had counted on hidden stocks of poison gas or germ weapons for the nation's defense.

This is interesting on a couple of fronts...

First the conspiracy front, which relates to a new/revived story floating around about Russian GRU involvement in "scrubbing" Iraq clean of WMDs and moving Saddams stockpiles to Syria and Lebanon. Link 1 Link 2 (I know...)

Second is this: It was all a misunderstanding created by Saddam's actions to comply with weapons inspectors as much as he had to while still maintaining the possibility that he might still have WMDs in an effort to deter the US and keep the Iraqi Shiites under control.

His actions would explain why everyone seemed to think that he still had WMD stockpiles even when inspectors found nothing.

(Continued from the NYT link)

In December 2002, he told his top commanders that Iraq did not possess unconventional arms, like nuclear, biological or chemical weapons, according to the Iraq Survey Group, a task force established by the C.I.A. to investigate what happened to Iraq's weapons programs. Mr. Hussein wanted his officers to know they could not rely on poison gas or germ weapons if war broke out. The disclosure that the cupboard was bare, Mr. Aziz said, sent morale plummeting.

To ensure that Iraq would pass scrutiny by United Nations arms inspectors, Mr. Hussein ordered that they be given the access that they wanted. And he ordered a crash effort to scrub the country so the inspectors would not discover any vestiges of old unconventional weapons, no small concern in a nation that had once amassed an arsenal of chemical weapons, biological agents and Scud missiles, the Iraq survey group report said.

Mr. Hussein's compliance was not complete, though. Iraq's declarations to the United Nations covering what stocks of illicit weapons it had possessed and how it had disposed of them were old and had gaps. And Mr. Hussein would not allow his weapons scientists to leave the country, where United Nations officials could interview them outside the government's control.

Seeking to deter Iran and even enemies at home, the Iraqi dictator's goal was to cooperate with the inspectors while preserving some ambiguity about its unconventional weapons ? a strategy General Hamdani, the Republican Guard commander, later dubbed in a television interview "deterrence by doubt."

That strategy led to mutual misperception. When Secretary of State Colin L. Powell addressed the Security Council in February 2003, he offered evidence from photographs and intercepted communications that the Iraqis were rushing to sanitize suspected weapons sites. Mr. Hussein's efforts to remove any residue from old unconventional weapons programs were viewed by the Americans as efforts to hide the weapons. The very steps the Iraqi government was taking to reduce the prospect of war were used against it, increasing the odds of a military confrontation.

In either case... Whether Saddam screwed himself by trying to maintain ambiguity about the WMD status of Iraq OR there was Russian involvement in sanitizing Iraq of WMDs (A very old accusation brought back into the light by John Shaw)... As more and more information starts to come out, the accusations of outright lying on the part of Dubbya seems to be losing traction.

Yeah he wasn't lying, he just didn't know the truth. Too bad because if he had waited and looked into this more instead of rushing to war he might not have fscked up and got us in this debacle of a war and thousands of people would still be alive today.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
In either case... Whether Saddam screwed himself by trying to maintain ambiguity about the WMD status of Iraq OR there was Russian involvement in sanitizing Iraq of WMDs (A very old accusation brought back into the light by John Shaw)... As more and more information starts to come out, the accusations of outright lying on the part of Dubbya seems to be losing traction.

I still don't believe a word Bush said, then or now. Bush has never been one to let reality stand in the way of his agenda. However, they did find the stash of rubber bands Saddam was saving to propel the rockets he was going to use to deliver his non-existent nukes. :roll:

Actually, I'm amazed at all the stories that mysteriously seem to be appearing as lame attempts to cover for Bush's "mistakes" and "misjudgments." Far too many excuses for far too many bone headed, costly and deadly decisions.

If you think that's a rant, consider that NOTHING excuses his recent pronouncements of absolute authority to ignore the Constitutional and statutory limits on his powers to spy on American citizens without warrants or to out covert CIA agents. :|

 

[Aisengard]

Right now Saddam's word is more plausable than what the American government is trying to accuse him of.

That says loads for the credibility lost by the American government under the disasterous Bush administration.

 

[dahunan]

Even if Saddam had them.. what did we gain by spending 400 billion dollars and over 2000 dead soldiers to try and remove them

Is it honestly that hard for a qualified terrorist organization to get their hands on good WMD's and use them if they were committed to using them?

Someone sent anthrax through the US Mail

WMD's were not why we went..
Saddam wasn't even why we went

We wanted to exert our control and influence throughout the region.

Wolfowitz was man of the year IN ISRAEL that says something about why we went..

 

[conjur]

Another non-event, non-story.

Too bad the NYTimes can't cover something more pressing like, say, NSA spying, politicizing our troops' lives (Operation Swarmer), etc.

These documents have been in the hands of this administration for how long now? How long will the apologists continue beating this dead horse?

 

[palehorse]

it has been my contention all along that he never outright "lied" to anyone... but GL selling that around here! Most people here at ATPN believe that he's the antichrist, and would dance in the streets if he were killed... so again, GL!

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: palehorse74
it has been my contention all along that he never outright "lied" to anyone... but GL selling that around here!

Yeah. There's always that nasty element of reality getting in the way of believing him. OTOH, assuming Bush was as lost as anyone else, he was the one with the trigger in his hand, and he's the one who pulled it.

If you're going to try to let Bush off the hook by claiming it was all a mistake based on faulty information, it's still like Cheney's misadventures with a shotgun. The guy he shot is just as wounded, and Cheney's just as much at fault for his failure to exercise responsible caution with a loaded gun. The biggest difference is the thousands of lives Bush's irresponsibility has cost.

Most people here at ATPN believe that he's the antichrist,...

That assumes there's a PRO christ. I don't accept that anymore than an antichrist.

... and would dance in the streets if he were killed... so again, GL!

I'd settle for out of office, as long as he took the rest of his lame crew with him. Sooner would much better. I think he should be tried for treason, but I'd forego the demand for the firing squad once he's convicted.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: palehorse74
it has been my contention all along that he never outright "lied" to anyone... but GL selling that around here! Most people here at ATPN believe that he's the antichrist, and would dance in the streets if he were killed... so again, GL!

Hey I've no problem with the "Incompetense" reasoning over "the lie". The Dub only knows what his handlers want him to know. As far as he was concerned I feel he truly believed and he was saying even though it was totally wrong.

 

[Whoozyerdaddy]

I didn't post this to "excuse" Bush from Iraq. I posted it because the general concensus seems to be that Dub flatout lied, or his administration cooked the intelligence, or some other scenario whereby we wen't to Iraq under a fabricated pretense. This information contradicts that idea. I don't think he lied to get into Iraq.

I do think he was over anxious...

I agree with Red Dawn. If we'd waited a little longer and actually confirmed there were no WMD in Iraq we could have avoided this mess. What's more, knowing that the WMDs were gone, the Shiites and Kurds might have taken care of Saddam for us. Hindsight being 20/20 and all...

But also taking into account that Saddam was being deliberately vague and playing a game where he was trying to have his cake and eat it too (comply with inspectors but maintain the possibility that he still had the weapons) how long would that process have taken?

(And then there is the Russian component whereby the WMDs were being held for safe keeping in Syria until the pressure from the US ended at which time Saddam could reclaim his weapons. The US, knowing this, withheld the info so as to avoid embarassing Russia thereby currying favor from Putin to get his vote on the UN Security Council - Black helicopter conspiracy theory stuff for sure... But it's out there so I thought I'd mention it)

You can play that what-if game all day long.

Every day we learn a little more about what was really going in in Iraq. You can say that Dubbya is manipulating the media or that they are compliant with his PR campaign but I don't believe for one second that CBS or the NYT is in any way going to cow to Bush.

As with everything else here, time will tell.

 

[homercles337]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: palehorse74
it has been my contention all along that he never outright "lied" to anyone... but GL selling that around here! Most people here at ATPN believe that he's the antichrist, and would dance in the streets if he were killed... so again, GL!

Hey I've no problem with the "Incompetense" reasoning over "the lie". The Dub only knows what his handlers want him to know. As far as he was concerned I feel he truly believed and he was saying even though it was totally wrong.

Dumbya constantly told his administration that he wanted Iraq--from day one in the WH! 9/11 was the catalyst he needed to cook the intel and invade.

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: conjur
Another non-event, non-story.

Too bad the NYTimes can't cover something more pressing like, say, NSA spying, politicizing our troops' lives (Operation Swarmer), etc.

These documents have been in the hands of this administration for how long now? How long will the apologists continue beating this dead horse?

NSA SPYING!!!! What next, the CIA spying too? Whoda thunk it.

 

[Jhhnn]

Very early in his Presidency, GWB said "Find Me A Way" to invade Iraq. 9/11 was the way, along with the deliberate hysteria and fearmongering from the Whitehouse. That goal was predetermined, the rationale for war merely excuses rather than reasons. First, make a decision. Next, gather whatever "evidence" you can find to justify it, no matter how irrational. The only real reason was to implement the Neocon vision of world hegemony thru military means.

No actions on the part of the Iraqis could have prevented the invasion, once the machinery to accomplish it had been set into motion. Truth and common sense went out the window once the Bushies had 9/11 as a springboard.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Very early in his Presidency, GWB said "Find Me A Way" to invade Iraq.

links? proof?...

 

[homercles337]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Very early in his Presidency, GWB said "Find Me A Way" to invade Iraq.

links? proof?...

Every single insider to the administration that has left and spoken has said this. Ever heard of Richard Clarke?

 

[Corn]

Originally posted by: homercles337

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Very early in his Presidency, GWB said "Find Me A Way" to invade Iraq.

links? proof?...

Every single insider to the administration that has left and spoken has said this. Ever heard of Richard Clarke?

Well then I guess it would be pretty damned easy to provide proof then, wouldn't it?

 

[magomago]

I don't think he lied about his stockpiles to "keep Shi'ites under control"...that doesn't make any sense.

What DOES make sense though is the fact that the country borders Iran ,whom he fought a war with. Telling the world he has no weapons isn't a good tactic there. To the north is Turkey who CONSTANTLY moves into northern Iraq and there are VERY tense relations as to Tigris and Euphrates water (Iraq previously got a nice flow of water going because it could have that leverage. After the Gulf war and Iraq's capabilities for war were destroyed Turkey decided to turn its Antolia plains irrigated and literally turned the massive rivers that used to flow into Iraq into a trickle). Of course he wants Turkey thinking he always has weapons. Below him is Kuwait, whom he fought a war with, and whome they drilled in Iraq to take its oil. Telling them that he can't enforce his threats doesn't play well there. Next to him is Jordan, but not too far away is Isreal. Iraq has adverseries on all sides.
Why do you think that no country in the mid east was NOT adamantly against the war. when I mean country I mean government. The people may have protested but the governments were quiet. Hell, Turkey tried to pump something like an extra 20 billion out of us on top of what we offered them! Iran didn't go on talking about the "Great Satan" during this time. Saudis, Kuwaits, and every gulf state was also fairly quiet. Even for countries that did say "no" it was more of a double speak because they asisted and aided since they wanted to SEE a weaker Iraq. The power Iraq loses, means power they could potentially gain.
Saddam played a game of Poker well...but ultimately the USA sat at the table and played so much money that they muscled him out

 

[homercles337]

Originally posted by: Corn

Originally posted by: homercles337

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Very early in his Presidency, GWB said "Find Me A Way" to invade Iraq.

links? proof?...

Every single insider to the administration that has left and spoken has said this. Ever heard of Richard Clarke?

Well then I guess it would be pretty damned easy to provide proof then, wouldn't it?

Richard Clarke on 60 minutes:
"I blame the entire Bush leadership for continuing to work on Cold War issues when they came back in power in 2001. It was as though they were preserved in amber from when they left office eight years earlier. They came back. They wanted to work on the same issues right away: Iraq, Star Wars. Not new issues, the new threats that had developed over the preceding eight years."

And for the dopes who dont know about google: linky

 

[Corn]

Originally posted by: homercles337

Originally posted by: Corn

Originally posted by: homercles337

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Very early in his Presidency, GWB said "Find Me A Way" to invade Iraq.

links? proof?...

Every single insider to the administration that has left and spoken has said this. Ever heard of Richard Clarke?

Well then I guess it would be pretty damned easy to provide proof then, wouldn't it?

Richard Clarke on 60 minutes:
"I blame the entire Bush leadership for continuing to work on Cold War issues when they came back in power in 2001. It was as though they were preserved in amber from when they left office eight years earlier. They came back. They wanted to work on the same issues right away: Iraq, Star Wars. Not new issues, the new threats that had developed over the preceding eight years."

And for the dopes who dont know about google: linky

That "linky" in no way shape or form substantiates Jhhnn's assertion that GWB said "Find Me A Way" as implied prior to 9/11. It is a matter of historical record that Bush wanted to pin 9/11 on Saddam, that's not what I was arguing. :roll:

 

[Orignal Earl]

Originally posted by: Corn
That "linky" in no way shape or form substantiates Jhhnn's assertion that GWB said "Find Me A Way" as implied prior to 9/11. It is a matter of historical record that Bush wanted to pin 9/11 on Saddam, that's not what I was arguing. :roll:

Paul O'Neill is the man your looking for

A year ago, Paul O'Neill was fired from his job as George Bush's Treasury Secretary for disagreeing too many times with the president's policy on tax cuts.

?From the very beginning, there was a conviction, that Saddam Hussein was a bad person and that he needed to go,? says O?Neill, who adds that going after Saddam was topic "A" 10 days after the inauguration - eight months before Sept. 11.

"It was all about finding a way to do it. That was the tone of it. The president saying ?Go find me a way to do this,?" says O?Neill. ?For me, the notion of pre-emption, that the U.S. has the unilateral right to do whatever we decide to do, is a really huge leap.?

Bush Sought ?Way? To Invade Iraq?

 

[homercles337]

Originally posted by: Corn

Originally posted by: homercles337

Originally posted by: Corn

Originally posted by: homercles337

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Very early in his Presidency, GWB said "Find Me A Way" to invade Iraq.

links? proof?...

Every single insider to the administration that has left and spoken has said this. Ever heard of Richard Clarke?

Well then I guess it would be pretty damned easy to provide proof then, wouldn't it?

Richard Clarke on 60 minutes:
"I blame the entire Bush leadership for continuing to work on Cold War issues when they came back in power in 2001. It was as though they were preserved in amber from when they left office eight years earlier. They came back. They wanted to work on the same issues right away: Iraq, Star Wars. Not new issues, the new threats that had developed over the preceding eight years."

And for the dopes who dont know about google: linky

That "linky" in no way shape or form substantiates Jhhnn's assertion that GWB said "Find Me A Way" as implied prior to 9/11. It is a matter of historical record that Bush wanted to pin 9/11 on Saddam, that's not what I was arguing. :roll:

Ok, so now we get to play "The Apologists Semenatics Game!" Yea! BushCo wanted Iraq from day one and made this desire CLEAR as an azure blue sky to (and from) his admin. Do your own homework bush boy and WTFU. You may want to include former Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill in that google. Wait, why am i doing your homework for you? How long have been under that neocon rock, btw?

 

[Jhhnn]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/10/oneill.bush/

And there's the now famous letter from the PNAC to Clinton arguing for the invasion of Iraq... Guess who moved into the senior advisory and policy positions when Bush moved into the Whitehouse? The PNAC....

 

[homercles337]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/10/oneill.bush/

And there's the now famous letter from the PNAC to Clinton arguing for the invasion of Iraq... Guess who moved into the senior advisory and policy positions when Bush moved into the Whitehouse? The PNAC....

I expect the apologists wont be hitting this thread anymore...

 

[Jhhnn]

People really hate to admit that they've been suckered, Homercles337. And it takes a variety of forms- usually involving denial, the most common method of avoiding cognitive dissonance, or of attacking the messenger, or of accepting shifting justifications from the con artists preying upon them... These defenses allow for continued belief.

We all want something to believe in. Unfortunately, some of the most attractive belief structures won't stand up to any scrutiny whatsoever, so the adherents simply won't scrutinize- faith rules it out... they're intellectually boxed in by their emotional natures... Something that the Bush Admin has exploited quite knowingly and ruthlessly...

 

[Rainsford]

I really enjoy the defense people make that Bush didn't lie or cook the intelligence or do anything dishonest to get us into Iraq. Not just because people like Richard Clarke cast quite a bit of doubt on that, but because at the vest best, he's just incompetent. I suppose that's better than a liar, but still, not exactly Presidential material.