S-s-scam! Any tips on dealing with chargebacks from Paypal?

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
51,296
7,085
136
Here's one for all you p-p-powerbook people :D I recently sold my Mac Mini on eBay. I placed the Buy-it-Now price at $1650, which just above covered the cost of parts (included a modified Mini plus lots of accessories). Here's a link to said auction. A user contacted me beforehand asking if I could ship it to a different address, something about his sister having an account, blah, blah, blah. I figured what the heck, as long as they paid for it, had good feedback, and a verified Paypal account. The user ended up making the high bid and I sent everything off. The money came in, I transferred it to my bank account, and everything is just peachy.

Fast forward to today, nearly a month and a half later. I receive a Chargeback Case email from Paypal stating the following:

We were recently notified that one of your buyers filed a chargeback
and asked their card issuer to reverse a payment made to you.

Although a chargeback may appear to be similar to a PayPal claim, it is
actually a process initiated outside of PayPal and controlled by the
card issuer. One of the unique benefits of using PayPal is that we help you
fight unwarranted chargebacks and attempt to recover your funds.

The chargeback states that the buyer's card was used to make a purchase
without their knowledge.

It is up to the card issuer to decide whether or not they believe that
the buyer?s chargeback is valid and they are asking for some information
about this transaction from you.


D'oh! My first time selling on eBay in years and of course I get scammed. So I just submitted the tracking number and whatnot to fight the case. I followed Baked's advice in my original thread to clear my Paypal balance ASAP, so now I'm showing a negative balance. I have the scammer's address, plus receipts with the tracking numbers (well, delivery confirmation numbers) on them from USPS, but I did send the items to a different address than was on the Paypal account because the buyer had contacted me beforehand. Obviously that was my mistake, but hopefully this will still work out.

Mistakes I made:
1. Sent to non-verified Paypal address
2. Didn't buy signature confirmation (should have!)
3. Sold to a bidder with 3 feedback ratings (100% positive though)

Things I did right:
1. Have full copies of email communications
2. Have the ship-to address
3. Have insurance on items shipped

Any tips on dealing with this? I sold the Mini to pick up a MacBook laptop, which I've already done. I figured this was a done deal since it's over a month old, but then today I got that email from Paypal. It's not like I can afford to pony up $1,600 AND lose my Mini at the same time. Apparently it's the credit card company that is asking for the money back and Paypal is just the middleman. Is there anything I can do beyond refuting the case?

Cliffs:
1. Sold an expensive computer on eBay
2. Got scammed
3. D'oh!
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
51,296
7,085
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I just shot an inquiry email off to the user's email address. It's a Yahoo account and is on the person's Paypal account, which says that the scammer must have either hacked the Yahoo account or hacked their credit card account since they'd need access to the person's email if it's a legitimate Paypal account or else access to their credit card info if the scammer setup the Paypal account. I also haven't left feedback on their eBay account; I sent off an email or two asking if everything arrived OK and if they had any setup questions and they haven't responded yet (gee, wonder why). If it's the person's real eBay account I don't want to knock them for getting hacked, but if it's the scammer's account I'll leave negative feedback. *sigh*
 

Runes911

Golden Member
Dec 6, 2000
1,683
0
76
Originally posted by: aircooled
If you sent to a non-verified address, you are pretty much SOL.

Yep. Even people who sent to CONFIRMED addresses have a hard time getting paypal to rule in their favor.
 

Vegitto

Diamond Member
May 3, 2005
5,234
1
0
Well, is a non-verified PayPal bad? Because you have to have a credit card to get it verified, and I don't have one :p. Hence me being an unverified member ;).
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
51,296
7,085
136
Originally posted by: Vegitto
Well, is a non-verified PayPal bad? Because you have to have a credit card to get it verified, and I don't have one :p. Hence me being an unverified member ;).

No, that's not what I mean. They had a verified address on their account, but I shipped to a seperate address at the buyer's request. It came from their Paypal email account, which I figured was legitimate, so I sent it to the alternate address. Learned my lesson :p
 

duragezic

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
11,234
4
81
Where you the one who started a thread asking if it was a scam? Selling your Mac Mini that the buyer said something like: "I am interested in your Powerbook"

I and many others said SCAM (may not be the same person though).

There was just a thread yesterday, SAME story EVERYTIME that was asking if it was a scam. Clearly was, but the OP was like "what the heck, once I get the money, I'll ship the item". Hes ripped off too if he went through with it.


Guys and gals, its the SAME story everytime: Ship outside of US to sister/mother, business trip, horrible English, the whole thing just screams scam. Please ignore these people.
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
51,296
7,085
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Originally posted by: duragezic
Where you the one who started a thread asking if it was a scam? Selling your Mac Mini that the buyer said something like: "I am interested in your Powerbook"

I and many others said SCAM (may not be the same person though).

There was just a thread yesterday, SAME story EVERYTIME that was asking if it was a scam. Clearly was, but the OP was like "what the heck, once I get the money, I'll ship the item". Hes ripped off too if he went through with it.


Guys and gals, its the SAME story everytime: Ship outside of US to sister/mother, business trip, horrible English, the whole thing just screams scam. Please ignore these people.

Yeah, I've learned my lesson. The seller had an eBay account with positive feedback, a valid Paypal account, paid the money, communicated with me via email, etc., but it turned out to be a scam anyway. I will be careful to follow the seller protection guidelines to a tee in the future; I should have sent it to the verified address and then had them ship it to the alternative address. I'm writing up a detailed report to Paypal claims about this case as I have lots of details regarding the scammer and my shipment. Major bummer!
 

pontifex

Lifer
Dec 5, 2000
43,804
46
91
NEVER send something to a different address. Most of the time it will be a scam.
 

Ika

Lifer
Mar 22, 2006
14,264
3
81
Originally posted by: Kaido
Originally posted by: duragezic
Where you the one who started a thread asking if it was a scam? Selling your Mac Mini that the buyer said something like: "I am interested in your Powerbook"

I and many others said SCAM (may not be the same person though).

There was just a thread yesterday, SAME story EVERYTIME that was asking if it was a scam. Clearly was, but the OP was like "what the heck, once I get the money, I'll ship the item". Hes ripped off too if he went through with it.


Guys and gals, its the SAME story everytime: Ship outside of US to sister/mother, business trip, horrible English, the whole thing just screams scam. Please ignore these people.

Yeah, I've learned my lesson. The seller had an eBay account with positive feedback, a valid Paypal account, paid the money, communicated with me via email, etc., but it turned out to be a scam anyway. I will be careful to follow the seller protection guidelines to a tee in the future; I should have sent it to the verified address and then had them ship it to the alternative address. I'm writing up a detailed report to Paypal claims about this case as I have lots of details regarding the scammer and my shipment. Major bummer!

You seem to be rather calm about losing $1650. If it were me I would probably drive to the address and bring a gun or two.
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
51,296
7,085
136
Originally posted by: Aflac
Originally posted by: Kaido
Originally posted by: duragezic
Where you the one who started a thread asking if it was a scam? Selling your Mac Mini that the buyer said something like: "I am interested in your Powerbook"

I and many others said SCAM (may not be the same person though).

There was just a thread yesterday, SAME story EVERYTIME that was asking if it was a scam. Clearly was, but the OP was like "what the heck, once I get the money, I'll ship the item". Hes ripped off too if he went through with it.


Guys and gals, its the SAME story everytime: Ship outside of US to sister/mother, business trip, horrible English, the whole thing just screams scam. Please ignore these people.

Yeah, I've learned my lesson. The seller had an eBay account with positive feedback, a valid Paypal account, paid the money, communicated with me via email, etc., but it turned out to be a scam anyway. I will be careful to follow the seller protection guidelines to a tee in the future; I should have sent it to the verified address and then had them ship it to the alternative address. I'm writing up a detailed report to Paypal claims about this case as I have lots of details regarding the scammer and my shipment. Major bummer!

You seem to be rather calm about losing $1650. If it were me I would probably drive to the address and bring a gun or two.

Well I've had good luck with Paypal in the past, so I have some faith that they'll resolve this. I'm pretty ticked off right now but I'm waiting to see what Paypal will do. Also, I just checked the status of my shipment (which was sent like a month ago) and it says "Status: Return to Sender". So hopefully they haven't received it, loaded it up with a bomb or anthrax, and sent it back my way :D
 

drnickriviera

Platinum Member
Jan 30, 2001
2,453
265
136
Mistake #4. Using USPS to ship at $1600 computer. Delivery Confirmation != Tracking. Paypals seller policy says the tracking number must be trackable online.
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
51,296
7,085
136
Originally posted by: drnickriviera
Mistake #4. Using USPS to ship at $1600 computer. Delivery Confirmation != Tracking. Paypals seller policy says the tracking number must be trackable online.

Nice, didn't know that. I'll be sure to use UPS or FedEx in the future. As of now it seems like I lucked out because the status page for my packages says return to sender and I can't find the address or anything similar to it in Google Maps.
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
51,296
7,085
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Hrm, here's what the USPS page says:

Status: Return to Sender

Your item was returned to the sender on July 31, 2006 because it could not be delivered as addressed.


I didn't receive anything yesterday...weird.
 

cker

Member
Dec 19, 2005
175
0
0
Good luck. I waas ripped off via PayPal, but I sent to confirmed address, verified PP user, et c -- the user received the item, he even confirmed to me in an email that he received the item. Then he decided he didn't want to pay, issued a chargeback, and PP just refunded him and took the money from me. I hope you get your stuff back. Maybe you can contact USPS and see if they have any fraud process?

PP is pretty foul to work with if you have any problem as a seller, but it's unfortunately the only game in town for eBay. That said, all large-ticket items I sell there now require USPS money orders. I'll take the PP risk on a $25 part, but not on anything over about $100-$200.
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
51,296
7,085
136
Originally posted by: cker
Good luck. I waas ripped off via PayPal, but I sent to confirmed address, verified PP user, et c -- the user received the item, he even confirmed to me in an email that he received the item. Then he decided he didn't want to pay, issued a chargeback, and PP just refunded him and took the money from me. I hope you get your stuff back. Maybe you can contact USPS and see if they have any fraud process?

PP is pretty foul to work with if you have any problem as a seller, but it's unfortunately the only game in town for eBay. That said, all large-ticket items I sell there now require USPS money orders. I'll take the PP risk on a $25 part, but not on anything over about $100-$200.

How do the USPS money orders work?
 

Ika

Lifer
Mar 22, 2006
14,264
3
81
Originally posted by: Kaido
Originally posted by: cker
Good luck. I waas ripped off via PayPal, but I sent to confirmed address, verified PP user, et c -- the user received the item, he even confirmed to me in an email that he received the item. Then he decided he didn't want to pay, issued a chargeback, and PP just refunded him and took the money from me. I hope you get your stuff back. Maybe you can contact USPS and see if they have any fraud process?

PP is pretty foul to work with if you have any problem as a seller, but it's unfortunately the only game in town for eBay. That said, all large-ticket items I sell there now require USPS money orders. I'll take the PP risk on a $25 part, but not on anything over about $100-$200.

How do the USPS money orders work?

Pretty much like cash - you go to a place where you can buy money orders, give them x amount of dollars, you get a money order "from you to recepient" for said x amount of dollars. You mail it out, and I believe only recepient can cash that money order in.
 

pontifex

Lifer
Dec 5, 2000
43,804
46
91
Originally posted by: Aflac
Originally posted by: Kaido
Originally posted by: cker
Good luck. I waas ripped off via PayPal, but I sent to confirmed address, verified PP user, et c -- the user received the item, he even confirmed to me in an email that he received the item. Then he decided he didn't want to pay, issued a chargeback, and PP just refunded him and took the money from me. I hope you get your stuff back. Maybe you can contact USPS and see if they have any fraud process?

PP is pretty foul to work with if you have any problem as a seller, but it's unfortunately the only game in town for eBay. That said, all large-ticket items I sell there now require USPS money orders. I'll take the PP risk on a $25 part, but not on anything over about $100-$200.

How do the USPS money orders work?

Pretty much like cash - you go to a place where you can buy money orders, give them x amount of dollars, you get a money order "from you to recepient" for said x amount of dollars. You mail it out, and I believe only recepient can cash that money order in.

gotta watch otu for fake money orders too though.
 

pontifex

Lifer
Dec 5, 2000
43,804
46
91
Originally posted by: Kaido
Hrm, here's what the USPS page says:

Status: Return to Sender

Your item was returned to the sender on July 31, 2006 because it could not be delivered as addressed.


I didn't receive anything yesterday...weird.

maybe its at the post office and they didn't get it out yet?
 

razor2025

Diamond Member
May 24, 2002
3,010
0
71
You did get your money out of the paypal acconut didn't you? If yes, then there's nothing really to worry about. PP can go fvck themselves. They'll most likely sell your negative account to collection, but you can easily ignore them, since you were the one who's been scammed. Keep all the paperwork around just in case, and keep an eye out on your credit report in case the collection agency plays dirty.

Yeah, Ebay and Paypal is infested with these @sshats, and their system is ripe for fraud. The bad news is that Paypal makes money regardless and it's the only game in town.

 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
51,296
7,085
136
Originally posted by: pontifex
Originally posted by: Kaido
Hrm, here's what the USPS page says:

Status: Return to Sender

Your item was returned to the sender on July 31, 2006 because it could not be delivered as addressed.


I didn't receive anything yesterday...weird.

maybe its at the post office and they didn't get it out yet?

I just went down there to pick up a different package; they said it was SCANNED today and was at the branch where I sent it to. For some odd reason I assumed "returned to sender" meant it was, well, returned to sender :disgust: Apparently it means they just scanned it and it's going to be returned to sender.
 

AlienCraft

Lifer
Nov 23, 2002
10,539
0
0
#1. That negative balance is yours to keep. Your bank will file fraud charges against you if you don't make it right.
#2. The United States Postal Inspectors have jurisdiction on wire fraud cases. Contact them. and file charges.
#3.
Paypal SUCKS and anyone who uses it for SELLING goods is el stupid-o.
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
51,296
7,085
136
Originally posted by: razor2025
You did get your money out of the paypal acconut didn't you? If yes, then there's nothing really to worry about. PP can go fvck themselves. They'll most likely sell your negative account to collection, but you can easily ignore them, since you were the one who's been scammed. Keep all the paperwork around just in case, and keep an eye out on your credit report in case the collection agency plays dirty.

Yeah, Ebay and Paypal is infested with these @sshats, and their system is ripe for fraud. The bad news is that Paypal makes money regardless and it's the only game in town.

Yes, I transferred it as soon as I received it.