S-IPS: Are there any left?

[JungleMan1]

Now that the 2007WFP has been riddled with issues after switching some of its units to S-PVA panel, it has left people like me in a bind for finding a good 20+ inch widescreen monitor.

I don't want a TN panel since I want accurate color reproduction, and I don't want an S-PVA because I don't want input lag. Clearly S-IPS is the technology I'm looking for. I don't buy monitors that often so I want something very good.

Seems that the only S-IPS widescreen 20" is the NEC 20WMGX2 (way out of my price range), and then there's the Sony SDM-P234 23", but that's even further out of my price range. I could grab a couple of 2005FPWs from eBay, but then I'd be stuck without a warranty.

I was hoping to spend about $350 but it looks like that's going to be near impossible.

Why are the S-IPS panels so hard to find?
Are the TN and S-PVA panels as bad as I imagine them to be?
Is now just a really really bad time to buy an LCD?

Thanks.

 

[CCityInstaller]

Why don't you try the Acer 2032WA? I have been using one for months and it's wonderful. It's either an IPS or S-IPS, I can't recall. The clarity and color gradient is better then my Gateway 2185W, Dell WFP 2007, and the Viewsonic 2035. I have owned a ton of 20.1" LCDs, and it is by far my favorite. It has also comes with Acer's Crystal Bright Technology, so you get a glossy finish similar to the NEC 20WMGX2.

 

[JungleMan1]

Thanks. The 2032WA isn't hugely widely available, and a little pricey, but at least it's an S-IPS. I will keep it in mind-- if I can find one for about $400 or less.

Tell me more about the 2185W since I was looking at that, and since I don't have the world's best eyesight, the extra inch at the same res might not hurt. What kind of panel does it use? Do you notice any input lag with it?

 

[JungleMan1]

Bump

 

[xtknight]

The FPD2185W is an S-PVA which uses the same panel as the 215TW, and is known for the same input lag issues AFAIK.

No, there really are not any fast high-quality S-IPS screens under $600 (NEC 20WMGX2). There are some 19" models that are poor in quality, and some from the Dell lottery, but that's about it.

 

[ViRGE]

Originally posted by: xtknight
The FPD2185W is an S-PVA which uses the same panel as the 215TW, and is known for the same input lag issues AFAIK.

No, there really are not any fast high-quality S-IPS screens under $600 (NEC 20WMGX2). There are some 19" models that are poor in quality, and some from the Dell lottery, but that's about it.

I don't know, I'd consider my 2070NX to be fast and high-quality, and it's a full 20" and only $450ish.

 

[Chadder007]

What about PLANAR LCDs? They used to make some good high end products and I still love my PX191 that I bought years ago.

 

[duragezic]

Didn't realize that the NEC 20WMGX2 was so expensive still. When it was coming out I wish I had it instead of my 2005FPW. My 2005FPW is excellent: no dead pixels, very even backlighting. But the model itself could use a faster response time as well as better blacks (contrast measure?). Still very happy with it. Can't believe with $350 it is this hard. I got this 2005FPW for a little over $350 in August 05. I've seen so many extremely cheap 19/20" WS LCDs, thought sure that a good one wouldn't be anymore than $400.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: ViRGE

Originally posted by: xtknight
The FPD2185W is an S-PVA which uses the same panel as the 215TW, and is known for the same input lag issues AFAIK.

No, there really are not any fast high-quality S-IPS screens under $600 (NEC 20WMGX2). There are some 19" models that are poor in quality, and some from the Dell lottery, but that's about it.

I don't know, I'd consider my 2070NX to be fast and high-quality, and it's a full 20" and only $450ish.

That is true. I was only thinking of widescreens when I was writing that for some reason. /knocks head

There are some 20" S-IPSes that are reasonably fast that I recommend that are 4:3 aspect. Such ones include the Dell 2007FP, NEC LCD2070NX, and HP LP2065.

 

[JungleMan1]

Thanks for the recommendations but as I stated in my first post, I am not looking for a 4:3 monitor, only considering widescreens.

I guess the sad truth is just that there isn't a whole lot out there, and there's no way I'm spending $600 for the NEC. Aside from the input lag, how are the Gateway and Samsung screens in regards to colors, response time, etc? How bad is the input lag, will it be noticeable by everyone (and on all screens)? Also, what about the 2407WFP, is this known for the same input lag issues?

If I can't find anything good then I might just have to wait another few months until something else comes out.

 

[CCityInstaller]

The Gateway and Samsung have excellent color reproduction, and I've never noticed any lag on it. The Acer 2032WA can be had here for under $400 locally with a 3 yr in store exchange warranty. If you are interested let me know and I wouldn't mind getting one you for. I don't think you would be disappointed.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: JungleMan1


Why are the S-IPS panels so hard to find?

They are expensive tech and LCD's are becoming commoditized thus limited market for LCD's costing twice as much or more.

Are the TN and S-PVA panels as bad as I imagine them to be?

Depends how picky you are. Some can't even tell the difference I can at a glance and most certainly side by side. IMO TN has become better than S-PVA because they have largly corrected the color shift right to left viewing angles which S-PVA seems unable to do...plus it's cheaper.

As far as widescreen 20s; your only options are some Dell 2007's if you're lucky and NEC 20gx2 and thats $600...


Your best option is a 22" TN from Fijitsu/Asus or something both around $350.


http://www.behardware.com/articles/647-...ith-reaction-times-from-2-to-5-ms.html

and there's no way I'm spending $600 for the NEC.

I thought the same thing and I paid $750...worth every penny. Would do again tomorrow if mine went out.

 

[n7]

Originally posted by: Zebo
IMO TN has become better than S-PVA because they have largly corrected the color shift right to left viewing angles which S-PVA seems unable to do...plus it's cheaper.

I didn't just see you say that did i? :Q

How can you like TNs over S-PVA?!

If you are referring the the newer Chi Mei 22" ones, yes, i find them better than standard TNs, but still, viewing angles are a joke, & color is always exaggerated beyond what it's really supposed to look like...
My buddy just got the Gateway 2485 S-PVA, & i'm sorry, but the thought of a 24" TN horrifies me.

What do you mean by "color shift right to left viewing angles"?

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: n7

Originally posted by: Zebo
IMO TN has become better than S-PVA because they have largly corrected the color shift right to left viewing angles which S-PVA seems unable to do...plus it's cheaper.

I didn't just see you say that did i? :Q

How can you like TNs over S-PVA?!

If you are referring the the newer Chi Mei 22" ones, yes, i find them better than standard TNs, but still, viewing angles are a joke, & color is always exaggerated beyond what it's really supposed to look like...
My buddy just got the Gateway 2485 S-PVA, & i'm sorry, but the thought of a 24" TN horrifies me.

What do you mean by "color shift right to left viewing angles"?

SPVA doesn't look better at a horizontal angle than a TN... There have been a number of shots at behardware showing PVA screen next to TN's and IPS screen. And the PVA looks all washed out at all angles as opposed vertical for TN and none, of course, for IPS. Vertcal is not as big of a deal as horizontal IMO since you rarley sit below monitor and are more likly to shift side to side.

You can calibrate a PVA so it looks just about right straight on, then it will look washed out at angles, or you can have it look a bit better at certain angles and look too dark straight on.

Edit I forgot SPVA is slowest tech too and better color, as long as you're looking straight on, does'nt put it over TN.

 

[n7]

Eh, i don't really pay much attention to review sites' pictures, sorry.

But i can say that from actually looking at them (& i work in retail, so yes, i get so see a ton of LCDs in person), i have never ever seen a TN with better viewing angles (from any direction) than a PVA/S-PVA.

I simply can't agree with that from all those i've seen.

Granted, i don't mess with settings too much, but i have seen hundreds of TNs over the past few years, & even the newer ones are still sh!t for side to side viewing angles compared to all the PVAs i've seen, & as for up & down, well in that regard, TNs are a bad joke.

I just don't agree, sorry.

 

[hans007]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: JungleMan1


Why are the S-IPS panels so hard to find?

They are expensive tech and LCD's are becoming commoditized thus limited market for LCD's costing twice as much or more.

Are the TN and S-PVA panels as bad as I imagine them to be?

Depends how picky you are. Some can't even tell the difference I can at a glance and most certainly side by side. IMO TN has become better than S-PVA because they have largly corrected the color shift right to left viewing angles which S-PVA seems unable to do...plus it's cheaper.

As far as widescreen 20s; your only options are some Dell 2007's if you're lucky and NEC 20gx2 and thats $600...


Your best option is a 22" TN from Fijitsu/Asus or something both around $350.


http://www.behardware.com/articles/647-...ith-reaction-times-from-2-to-5-ms.html

and there's no way I'm spending $600 for the NEC.

I thought the same thing and I paid $750...worth every penny. Would do again tomorrow if mine went out.

if you look around you can probably get it for $550 + shipping...

thats what i paid for mine, and its basically the only thing on my box that isnt "budget" probably the only thing really worth paying a premium for anyway IS your monitor.

people buy premium ram, premium coolers etc, stuff you wont even notice. if anything just pay the extra $200 and get the monitor. if you wanna justify it , technically the 20wmgx2 is also an hdtv .

 

[MADMAX23]

I'm with you n7, I just can't believe Zebo prefers a TN film panel (even the best one right now) over a S-PVA panel....it's simply ridiculous....I've had already on my desk two 22" TN panels (Samsung 225BW and Viewsonic 2235wm), a 21" Samsung 215TW (S-PVA) and a 20" DELL 2007FPW (A03 S-PVA) and the difference, on every aspect (including viewing angles), is HUGE, being S-PVA much better than TN film panels...

I think Zebo has not had a TN film panel and a S-PVA panel side by side for a few weeks...differences are obvious right out of the box....and even after calibration...sorry.

Personally there is nothing compared to having monitors side by side for direct comparison, that's why everyone should take Behardware's pics and other site's pics as an approximation....not as reference pics.

Zebo, I think you looked at these pics from Behardware....13 20" LCD panels viewing angles (TN, P-MVA, S-PVA and (A) S-IPS)
If this is the case...the only monitor that uses S-PVA is the Samsung 215TW...and if you compare its maximum viewing angle before colors start getting too washed out (according to Behardware pics) against the TN Samsung 204B right above...you'll see the max angle is nearly the same width. Compare it now against the BenQ FP202W above and you'll see S-PVA's viewing angle is wider.

Again, I must say that those pics have to be taken as an approxiamtion since their author does not reveal (because he doesn't know) the angle and other conditions relevant for a better discussion or comparison.

Another Behardware set of pics showing S-PVA panels offering a perfect color and contrast image at a 100º side angle....
S-PVA vs S-PVA viewing angles (100º from sides = perfect image, colors not washed at all)

From my experience, "best viewing angle panels" (perfect color and contrast viewed from a side angle) are AS-SIPS and S-IPS, of course, and the second best ones are S-PVA panels.

An interesting discussion would be comparing TN film and P-MVA panels' viewing angles since from my experience....TN films may be right now a little bit better than P-MVA's max perfect viewing angles...just a thought.

 

[Zebo]

Check here and it is clear. IPS is best. TN is second best. VA last.
http://www.behardware.com/articles/598-6/20-inches-lcd-p-mva-vs-s-ips.html


In your links it's the same. If you stop looking at the verticals and look only at the horizontal. TN is better.

Both MVA and PVA are extremely annoying to me. Having owned two S-PVA (Dell 2405 AND 1905), TN and checked out MVA, S-IPS in shops. I can state that I won't go near another VA panel if budget was a concern but a TN panel like NEC 90GX2 with high contrast and fast. TN is much more stable horizonally and that is the most important dimension.

If I want quality, I will buy IPS, if I want to save money TN. I will never buy VA. Because I am one the unfortunate minority that can't stand the shifty nature of VA panels. Just like the minority who can't stand Rainbows on DLP. I can't stand those either. I am just sensitive to visual abberations.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: hans007

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: JungleMan1


Why are the S-IPS panels so hard to find?

They are expensive tech and LCD's are becoming commoditized thus limited market for LCD's costing twice as much or more.

Are the TN and S-PVA panels as bad as I imagine them to be?

Depends how picky you are. Some can't even tell the difference I can at a glance and most certainly side by side. IMO TN has become better than S-PVA because they have largly corrected the color shift right to left viewing angles which S-PVA seems unable to do...plus it's cheaper.

As far as widescreen 20s; your only options are some Dell 2007's if you're lucky and NEC 20gx2 and thats $600...


Your best option is a 22" TN from Fijitsu/Asus or something both around $350.


http://www.behardware.com/articles/647-...ith-reaction-times-from-2-to-5-ms.html

and there's no way I'm spending $600 for the NEC.

I thought the same thing and I paid $750...worth every penny. Would do again tomorrow if mine went out.

if you look around you can probably get it for $550 + shipping...

thats what i paid for mine, and its basically the only thing on my box that isnt "budget" probably the only thing really worth paying a premium for anyway IS your monitor.

people buy premium ram, premium coolers etc, stuff you wont even notice. if anything just pay the extra $200 and get the monitor. if you wanna justify it , technically the 20wmgx2 is also an hdtv .

Agree 100%. Monitor first.

 

[MADMAX23]

Originally posted by: Zebo
Check here and it is clear. IPS is best. TN is second best. VA last.
http://www.behardware.com/articles/598-6/20-inches-lcd-p-mva-vs-s-ips.html


In your links it's the same. If you stop looking at the verticals and look only at the horizontal. TN is better.

Both MVA and PVA are extremely annoying to me. Having owned two S-PVA (Dell 2405 AND 1905), TN and checked out MVA, S-IPS in shops. I can state that I won't go near another VA panel if budget was a concern but a TN panel like NEC 90GX2 with high contrast and fast. TN is much more stable horizonally and that is the most important dimension.

If I want quality, I will buy IPS, if I want to save money TN. I will never buy VA. Because I am one the unfortunate minority that can't stand the shifty nature of VA panels. Just like the minority who can't stand Rainbows on DLP. I can't stand those either. I am just sensitive to visual abberations.

I'm really sorry (and worried too) to hear this from you Zebo...you say you can't stand S-PVA panels, that you prefer a TN panel over a S-PVA one....ask any amateur or professional photographer or designer on any dedicated forum....no one who cares uses a TN film panel.

Those who can afford a S-IPS panel, do get a S-IPS panel ('cause they are the best ones)and those who can't afford S-IPS, get a S-PVA in second place or a P-MVA as the least option, but never a TN film panel...

I am very picky with almost every video quality related topic (I can tell you)....and if I wanted the best panel I would buy an AS-IPS (for photography), like your NEC's, but I haven't bought it because I can't stand glossy panel finishes....that's why my only alternative was to get a DELL 2007FPW, the first unit received (DELL's lottery) was a magnific A03 S-PVA panel...no complaints, except that I wanted a S-IPS panel (for the same price) so I sold it to a friend and bought another one...this time I was lucky and the unit received had a perfect S-IPS panel in...

Also remember that VA panels produce much less video noise when watching any video than (A)S-IPS panels. It can be annoying if you are facing your S-IPS based monitor at a distance of 50-60cm (common distance) or less, videos get rather dirty (a full curtain of permanently moving black spots) as with TN panels (I can tell you)...these fact has made a considerable amount of video editors to chose either S-PVA or P-MVA panels for video editing over S-IPS...

What I want to point out is that if I couldn't have been able to get a 20" S-IPS panel from DELL, I would've kept my 20" S-PVA DELL with a great and big smile (although not my best smile) on my face instead of getting a TN panel...that would've been nosense...

 

[Zebo]

Photo guys don't use TN because of it's 6bit color spectrum sux only getting close to 16 mil with dithering which I can't stand either and notice. Banding issues are also bothersome about TN but IMO between the two I'll take the speed TN offers and decent horizontal viewing angles of modern TN's. Look they both have serious issues which is why I use neither. I was just pointing out SPVA problems and you guys jump all over it. Maybe you are just one of those folks who don't notice tone shift as you move further from center. Much like those who don't notice input lag of S-PVA's. And maybe that it's the slowest tech and blurs like crazy does'nt bother you either. But the 2405 was quite possibly the worst display I have ever owned since the shimmering/tone shift effect that shifts at angles so small that it presented different tone to each eye let alone all the way out on the sides.

 

[JungleMan1]

Bump for more opinions and my input

I saw my friend's S-IPS 2007WFP and it looks amazing. Viewable from all angles, bright colors. Honestly, it almost makes me want to take a chance with the Dell lottery since shipping to my house is free, and I'd only have to pay return shipping if I get a PVA.

Another friend of mine also recently purchased two Sceptre 20" TN panels. He purchased one a couple of weeks after the other though, so I was able to see side by side with his CRT. The picture looked much better (though it was a crap CRT), but I noticed that it seemed sort of laggy compared to the CRT? Is this possible on a TN or is this a figment of my imagination? Anyway, for the $200 price they are a pretty good value and they look nicer than I'd expected, though one of them has noticeable backlight bleeding.

I could see getting used to input lag but 16.7 million colors has been a standard that has been around for many many years and I can't deal with the principle of taking a step back to dithering to achieve it. Certainly no way I'd put down big bucks on monitors to go back to the Dark Ages...

 

[Zebo]

MADMAX23 here is an excellent depiction of what I mean by color shift with SPVA's

This is a Dell 2007wfp with S-PVA panel and look how color shift depending on angle.
http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/9021/dell2007wfpwithspvapanesu5.jpg
Maybe that you got a glorious IPS you forgot how bad it was? I'll never forget. Hurt my head.


JungleMan1- Get a Dell 2007wfp and keep sending them back until you're IPSed. Price is your constraint here. Personally I can't understand how people don't mind spending a $1500-$2000 on PC components but then want a $300 monitor to look at every day. Very strange. Get the NEC GX2 if you want high levels of happiness.

 

[mset]

Originally posted by: Zebo
JungleMan1- Get a Dell 2007wfp and keep sending them back until you're IPSed.

Sounds like good advice, but a bit of a hassle if you have to go 3 rounds with them. I've had a WTB thread up here and at two other sites, looking for a used S-IPS unit from any high heatware guy, with no luck at all, except today one guy said he had an LG L2000C for sale.

I guess this is a good thing in a backdoor sort of way, since it means not many guys are interested in parting with their S-IPS units.

I'm coveting that 20WMGX2. I will soon have to bite the bullet and buy it but it's $800 CDN up here in Toronto. I was hoping for a used LP2065 from eBay, but no luck so far. There's a new one there for $640 USD shipped to Toronto but that's into 20WMGX2 range.


EDIT: Hmm... just checked out the NEC 2070NX which wasn't on my list for some reason. $600 CDN with tax included. I may have to check that out.

Isn't the gear-lover's brain a wonderful thing? Mine is saying "For just $180 more, 20WMGX2..."

 

[Zebo]

You have heat? I will broker you a HP2065 from newegg which I think is $350 USD AR if you want as long as I can play with it for a day Quality assurance tests.. for your sake of course

I saw your thread but forgot to respond.. BF means BLACK FRAME. Or all black as opposed black and silver which is the other one. L2000C is rumored to be a panel lotto with MVA (worse than PVA) and IPS so.... hold off it's not worth risk at those prices. 2070NX is a wonderful display I have two in my office and just unbelievable colors with zero banding however it's not a gamers monitor as it blurs significantly (for my taste)

You know the 20WMGX2 is a wide screen 16:10 20" and your other mentions are 4:3 20's?