Ryan Medicare privatization helps Democrat win heavily Republican congressional seat

[mchammer187]

The current system is setup so a small amount of people use a lot of healthcare.

There is no price sensitivity. Oh lets get a 5K MRI just in case since I'm not the one paying for it why does it matter. Doctors and patients really need to bear some price sensitivity to see what unnecessary treatment is really costing them.

People were so against a single payer system because it "rations" healthcare and creates "death panels" etc.

Does anyone really think the Ryan plan doesn't do exactly the same thing (ration healthcare)?

 

[QuantumPion]

Guesses that are all wrong.

Government doesn't need to get more 'bureaucratized and inefficient' with size. That's ignorant ideological parroting. Look up 'economies of scale'.

Look up the overhead of, say, Social Security. Compare it to the overhead of privatized retirement plans.

The moon landing was a huge project, did that make it less efficient?.

Seriously? You think economies of scale, a term used to describe the production of goods by a profit-motivated business, applies to the government? Really? Even you can't be that naive.

I don't know what private retirement plan you have but mine has an overhead of zero. I manage my own retirement savings. The SSA has some 70,000 employees.

As for the moon landing, NASA is the model of government inefficiency. Just because they managed to land on the moon (using equipment designed by contracted-out private companies), doesn't mean they didn't waste huge sums of money in the process and still do to this day. To use NASA as an example of government efficiency is not merely laughable, it is outright absurd in the most profound way which indicates how utterly naive and ignorant you truly are.

You really are the poster child for my sig line.

 

[fskimospy]

The current system is setup so a small amount of people use a lot of healthcare.

There is no price sensitivity. Oh lets get a 5K MRI just in case since I'm not the one paying for it why does it matter. Doctors and patients really need to bear some price sensitivity to see what unnecessary treatment is really costing them.

People were so against a single payer system because it "rations" healthcare and creates "death panels" etc.

Does anyone really think the Ryan plan doesn't do exactly the same thing (ration healthcare)?

It's true that all systems ration health care, but the idea that people will use substantially fewer services isn't necessarily true. Up to 50% of your lifetime health care costs happen in the last 6 months of your life, and generally most of your costs are related to serious illness or risk of death. In those situations people will opt for expensive treatments no matter what, because they are primarily concerned with staying alive, not how much the test costs.

 

[MomentsofSanity]

The current system is setup so a small amount of people use a lot of healthcare.

There is no price sensitivity. Oh lets get a 5K MRI just in case since I'm not the one paying for it why does it matter. Doctors and patients really need to bear some price sensitivity to see what unnecessary treatment is really costing them.

People were so against a single payer system because it "rations" healthcare and creates "death panels" etc.

Does anyone really think the Ryan plan doesn't do exactly the same thing (ration healthcare)?

The insurance companies are already de facto death panels and it's not really a big secret. Pretty much the only ones who can decide whether someone gets treatment a physician deems medically necessary by refusing to cover it for whatever reason they decide to use.

 

[LegendKiller]

Instead of putting out balanced proposals that mix cuts with increased taxes he showed his true colors by proposing cuts and cutting taxes to the rich, something which already has proven to not generate a single dollar of economic growth and, if anything, has lead us down a worse path.

Now with that fool Norquist is hampering the Gang of Six from being able to iron out a bi-lateral proposal.

The path is clear, cut defense somewhat, exit Iraq/Afghan, cut entitlements somewhat, raise cap gains taxes, raise marginal tax brackets 5%, give a tax holiday for repatriation of corp taxes or at least a marginal taxation for repatriation, cut corp taxes 5-10%.

Those alone would dramatically improve the budget and allow the economy to really get going. Sadly, there's too many fundies preventing any rational movement.

 

[QuantumPion]

The current system is setup so a small amount of people use a lot of healthcare.

There is no price sensitivity. Oh lets get a 5K MRI just in case since I'm not the one paying for it why does it matter. Doctors and patients really need to bear some price sensitivity to see what unnecessary treatment is really costing them.

People were so against a single payer system because it "rations" healthcare and creates "death panels" etc.

Does anyone really think the Ryan plan doesn't do exactly the same thing (ration healthcare)?

That's a good point, I forgot about that one - lawsuits. We have a seriously broken medical lawsuit industry which drives up prices of doctor insurance and creates a abnormally large demand for unnecessary tests which drive up costs.


The difference between death panels rationing health care and self-rationing health care is fairly obvious. When you pay for your own health care, you only buy what you really need. You don't pay for an MRI if it costs $5000 unless there really is a serious risk. And if you really need some expensive procedure to live, you can get a loan, charity, donations, etc. The government just says tough luck take the pain pill while mandating people get MRI's that don't need them in order to absolve itself of possible lawsuits. It's a perverse incentive.

 

[fskimospy]

That's a good point, I forgot about that one - lawsuits. We have a seriously broken medical lawsuit industry which drives up prices of doctor insurance and creates a abnormally large demand for unnecessary tests which drive up costs.


The difference between death panels rationing health care and self-rationing health care is fairly obvious. When you pay for your own health care, you only buy what you really need. You don't pay for an MRI if it costs $5000 unless there really is a serious risk. And if you really need some expensive procedure to live, you can get a loan, charity, donations, etc. The government just says tough luck take the pain pill while mandating people get MRI's that don't need them in order to absolve itself of possible lawsuits. It's a perverse incentive.

No it doesn't. We have gone over this repeatedly in other threads. Tort costs and associated defensive medicine account for a small percentage of total US health outlays. You haven't provided a single factual argument to support your point, just a bunch of baseless statements and complaints about other issues not related to health care.

 

[ProfJohn]

It is a special election which means its results can't be used as an indicator of national trends.

Too many variables in effect to suggest that this is a sign that the Republicans are falling apart or that Democrats are going to retake the house next fall.

Plus the debate next year will be about the economy and not Ryan's medicare plan.

 

[brencat]

The path is clear, cut defense somewhat, exit Iraq/Afghan, cut entitlements somewhat, raise cap gains taxes, raise marginal tax brackets 5%, give a tax holiday for repatriation of corp taxes or at least a marginal taxation for repatriation, cut corp taxes 5-10%.

Wow, excellent post, with the focal points bolded for emphasis. Although I disagree that ALL marginal tax brackets need to be increased 5%. I would rather see additional marginal brackets starting at the $500 - 750k of income levels and higher. But absolutely cap gains taxes need to be raised, and for the love of God get rid of the carried interest provision!

 

[fskimospy]

It is a special election which means its results can't be used as an indicator of national trends.

Too many variables in effect to suggest that this is a sign that the Republicans are falling apart or that Democrats are going to retake the house next fall.

Plus the debate next year will be about the economy and not Ryan's medicare plan.

Well that's certainly odd. I remember a good friend of mine named ProfJohn saying that when Scott Brown won his special election in Massachusetts that Democrats needed to be very afraid for the fall.

Maybe you can explain why that special election could be used as an indicator of national trends, but not this one?

 

[ProfJohn]

A Republican winning a senate seat held by Democrats since 1953 in one of the bluest states in the country vs a Democrat winning a Republican seat in another one of the bluest states in the country.

One local news site shows turnout to be about 100k which is half of the 2010 turnout. If that number is right then that could be part of the problem too.

Plus, if Ryan's medicare plan was really what turned this election then I don't see how Democrats can use that issue again in 2012 like the Republicans were able to use Obamacare in 2010.

The Republicans just need to turn attention away from Ryan's ideas and get it back on the law passed by the Democrats that does nothing to save medicare in the long run.

Of course 2012 will be about the economy and unemployment and the Democrats have no answers to those problem at this point.

 

[fskimospy]

A Republican winning a senate seat held by Democrats since 1953 in one of the bluest states in the country vs a Democrat winning a Republican seat in another one of the bluest states in the country.

One local news site shows turnout to be about 100k which is half of the 2010 turnout. If that number is right then that could be part of the problem too.

Plus, if Ryan's medicare plan was really what turned this election then I don't see how Democrats can use that issue again in 2012 like the Republicans were able to use Obamacare in 2010.

The Republicans just need to turn attention away from Ryan's ideas and get it back on the law passed by the Democrats that does nothing to save medicare in the long run.

Of course 2012 will be about the economy and unemployment and the Democrats have no answers to those problem at this point.

This was a congressional district, not a state, and a pretty Republican leaning district at that. Your argument is like saying it's an amazing thing when a Democrat gets elected in Austin because Texas is so Republican. The last time the seat was open, the Republican won it by fifteen points. When running for re-election he won it by fifty points... and a Democrat just won that seat.

I like how you've now changed your tune from 'special elections don't matter' to 'THIS special election doesn't matter'. Amazingly enough, as per usual, your election predictions happen to come perfectly in line with what you desperately hope to be true. If we followed your electoral prognostications by this point there would be about 4 democrats in the entire Congress and the Republicans would have won the presidency so overwhelmingly that we would have needed to create an entirely new office just to house all the extra winners.

Oh, and Democrats will keep using the Ryan plan all the way through this election cycle, you can bank on that. It's all the same legislators who voted for it.

 

[Thump553]

Instead of putting out balanced proposals that mix cuts with increased taxes he showed his true colors by proposing cuts and cutting taxes to the rich, something which already has proven to not generate a single dollar of economic growth and, if anything, has lead us down a worse path.

Now with that fool Norquist is hampering the Gang of Six from being able to iron out a bi-lateral proposal.

The path is clear, cut defense somewhat, exit Iraq/Afghan, cut entitlements somewhat, raise cap gains taxes, raise marginal tax brackets 5%, give a tax holiday for repatriation of corp taxes or at least a marginal taxation for repatriation, cut corp taxes 5-10%.

Those alone would dramatically improve the budget and allow the economy to really get going. Sadly, there's too many fundies preventing any rational movement.

I can pretty much agree with that proposal except leaving Afghanistan-I think the political cost to the USA would exceed any budgetary savings by pulling out now. I think Afghanistan and more importantly Pakistan are going to be drains upon the US economy and military for a long time to come.

The GOP has an enormously valuable political property in its always cut taxes/shrink the beast mantra. It has worked by them since the 80s and I don't see them voluntarily moving away from it in the foreseeable future. We will never remotely come close to balancing the budget without raising taxes, however, and increasing everyone's marginal tax rate appeals to me as it gives everyone some skin in the game.

Ordinarily I would agree with PJ about the predictive value of interim elections, but this one was a clear stunner. I think you will see the GOP quietly abandon Ryan's proposal from here on out. Turns out they could not fool the general voting population on that issue this time.

 

[fskimospy]

I can pretty much agree with that proposal except leaving Afghanistan-I think the political cost to the USA would exceed any budgetary savings by pulling out now. I think Afghanistan and more importantly Pakistan are going to be drains upon the US economy and military for a long time to come.

The GOP has an enormously valuable political property in its always cut taxes/shrink the beast mantra. It has worked by them since the 80s and I don't see them voluntarily moving away from it in the foreseeable future. We will never remotely come close to balancing the budget without raising taxes, however, and increasing everyone's marginal tax rate appeals to me as it gives everyone some skin in the game.

Ordinarily I would agree with PJ about the predictive value of interim elections, but this one was a clear stunner. I think you will see the GOP quietly abandon Ryan's proposal from here on out. Turns out they could not fool the general voting population on that issue this time.

By the way, I also agree that special elections are hard to generalize from. This one was such a large swing that it's hard to think there aren't some larger implications though.

I was more just taking issue with Pro-Jo's selective choice of what special elections to view as harbingers of larger national shifts.

 

[werepossum]

The amusing thing about this election is that the Democrats just pulled billions out of Medicare but are still able to scare people about Republicans who want to steal their Medicare.

Smartest thing for the Pubbies would be to let Medicare & Medicaid crash before doing anything about them.

 

[fskimospy]

The amusing thing about this election is that the Democrats just pulled billions out of Medicare but are still able to scare people about Republicans who want to steal their Medicare.

Smartest thing for the Pubbies would be to let Medicare & Medicaid crash before doing anything about them.

I have no idea how a health crisis for the poor and elderly would be the 'smartest thing' for any responsible governing party to do.

 

[werepossum]

I have no idea how a health crisis for the poor and elderly would be the 'smartest thing' for any responsible governing party to do.

Then presumably you oppose the Democrats' efforts in diverting money out of those programs and opposing reform of them, correct? Or is political posturing while they inexorably go broke somehow different because progressives are doing it?

 

[QuantumPion]

The path is clear, cut defense somewhat, exit Iraq/Afghan, cut entitlements somewhat, raise cap gains taxes, raise marginal tax brackets 5%, give a tax holiday for repatriation of corp taxes or at least a marginal taxation for repatriation, cut corp taxes 5-10%.

You can cut defense spending to zero and raise income taxes to 100% and still not have enough to pay for the entitlement programs. Any path which does not drastically reduce entitlement programs will fail, period.

 

[hal2kilo]

It is a special election which means its results can't be used as an indicator of national trends.

Too many variables in effect to suggest that this is a sign that the Republicans are falling apart or that Democrats are going to retake the house next fall.

Plus the debate next year will be about the economy and not Ryan's medicare plan.

Bu, Bu, but when Scott Brown won in Massachusetts you guys went on blathering about how that showed that the Democrats went too far, misreading their mandate, but somehow it's different this time.

 

[QuantumPion]

Oh and as for this NY election - apparently there was a Democrat operative running as a Tea Party candidate that siphoned 10% of the republican vote off. If it weren't for that, the republican would have won. More voter fraud courtesy of the DNC - yet further evidence that the only way liberalism wins is by force or cheating.

 

[brencat]

You can cut defense spending to zero and raise income taxes to 100% and still not have enough to pay for the entitlement programs. Any path which does not drastically reduce entitlement programs will fail, period.

The problem isn't income taxes being too low. Salaried income is already taxed enough. It's capital gains and sh*t like carried interest which isn't taxed appropriately. There's an entire investor class that is not paying a high enough effective tax rate when compared with salaried workers.

 

[QuantumPion]

The problem isn't income taxes being too low. Salaried income is already taxed enough. It's capital gains and sh*t like carried interest which isn't taxed appropriately. There's an entire investor class that is not paying a high enough effective tax rate when compared with salaried workers.

You still don't understand. The Entire world GDP is insufficient to cover the unfunded liability of medicare alone.

 

[lupi]

FDR, still screwing us to this day.

 

[Anarchist420]

The reason health care is so damned expensive is because of the government. People who propose further nationalizing the health care industry fail to take that into account.

They need to start by repealing medicare part D, and cutting medicare benefits by 20% after that, especially for people who don't need it.

I really think that Paul Ryan is also a Democratic Operative, because he's giving the Democrats something to use against the Republicans if you're stupid. Paul Ryan's budget plan is the Joke of the Century.

 

[CallMeJoe]

Bu, Bu, but when Scott Brown won in Massachusetts you guys went on blathering about how that showed that the Democrats went too far, misreading their mandate, but somehow it's different this time.

I'm not sure the Tea Party faithful are happy being reminded of Senator Brown, now that he has demonstrated such unmistakable signs of sanity in the face of current Republican orthodoxy.