• We’re currently investigating an issue related to the forum theme and styling that is impacting page layout and visual formatting. The problem has been identified, and we are actively working on a resolution. There is no impact to user data or functionality, this is strictly a front-end display issue. We’ll post an update once the fix has been deployed. Thanks for your patience while we get this sorted.

Russia Suspends Key Arms Agreement Over U.S. Missile Shield

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Text

July 15, 2007
By ANDREW E. KRAMER and THOM SHANKER

MOSCOW, July 14 ? President Vladimir V. Putin, angered by American plans to deploy a missile shield in Eastern Europe, formally notified NATO governments on Saturday that Russia will suspend its obligations under the Conventional Forces in Europe Treaty, a key cold war-era arms limitation agreement.

The decision ratcheted up tensions over the missile shield plan, but also reflected a trend of rising anti-Americanism and deep suspicion toward the West here as Russia?s March presidential elections approach.

Russia?s suspension will take effect in 150 days, according to a copy of the president?s decree posted on a Kremlin Web site. That delay leaves open the possibility of further negotiation on the 1990 treaty, which resulted in a huge wave of disarmament along the former East-West divide in Europe.

Despite a Foreign Ministry statement that Russia would reject any limitations on redeploying heavy weaponry on its Western border, the Kremlin?s move is not expected to radically transform the security situation.

But the decision is a strong indicator that the smiles and warm embraces between Presidents Bush and Putin just a few weekends ago at the so-called lobster summit in Maine did little to soften the Kremlin?s pique over proposals to build two American missile defense bases in former Soviet satellite states, Poland and the Czech Republic.

So on Saturday, Mr. Putin reached for a powerful diplomatic tool to fend off what he has described as American bullying and NATO and European encirclement, both economic and military, that the Kremlin believes encroaches into a Russian sphere of influence. White House officials expressed immediate disappointment after the announcement from Moscow, but pledged to continue to meet with their Russian counterparts to resolve the dispute.

?We?re disappointed Russia has suspended its participation for now, but we?ll continue to have discussions with them in the coming months on the best way to proceed in this area, that is in the interest of all parties involved and provides for security in Europe,? said Gordon D. Johndroe, the National Security Council spokesman.

Critics of the United States? handling of relations with Russia have warned that the Bush administration was creating an environment in which the Putin government, emboldened by a flood of oil dollars and seeking to re-establish its status in the world, could pick and choose among its treaty obligations. After all, the Bush administration has put less stock in official treaty relations than many predecessors. Under Mr. Bush, the United States pulled out of the Antiballistic Missile Treaty so it could pursue the goal of a global antimissile shield, the exact effort that has so angered Mr. Putin and his inner circle.

Indeed, the Saturday announcement from Moscow was not much of a surprise, given Mr. Putin?s earlier warnings. Bush administration officials routinely point to other significant areas of cooperation ? on halting nuclear proliferation, on battling terrorism and combating drug traffic ? so White House officials reject assessments that relations with Russia are on the point of rupturing.

But while the Saturday announcement was, at least, unsettling to officials in Washington and in NATO capitals, senior policy analysts said it is likely only to strengthen the position of Mr. Putin?s leadership clique among Russian voters in the spring elections. Anti-American posturing has played well with the public, and it is encouraged in the state news media and through such means as leaflets distributed by Kremlin-sponsored youth groups. One depicts American warplanes loading body bags at a Moscow airport, for example.

Mr. Putin?s decree explained the decision to indefinitely suspend Russia?s treaty obligations as caused by ?extraordinary circumstances? that ?affect the security of the Russian Federation and require immediate measures.?

A separate statement by the Foreign Ministry identified these circumstances as unrelated to the missile shield plans ? though Mr. Putin has linked the issues in previous speeches. In the most notable case, during a state of the nation speech to Parliament on April 26, Mr. Putin threatened to suspend observance of the treaty in response to the United States? abrogation of the Antiballistic Missile Treaty and plans to deploy missile-shield elements in the Czech Republic and Poland.

Still, Mr. Putin?s threat in April, and his execution of it on Saturday, left some arms-control experts scratching their heads because the conventional forces treaty has no formal provision for a signatory nation to suspend observance. A nation can withdraw from the treaty without violating its terms, but only after notifying the other signatory countries 150 days in advance.

The decree Mr. Putin signed on Saturday adhered to that time frame, but sought to apply it to suspension instead of withdrawal. The foreign ministry said this formulation complied with ?international law.?

The Kremlin on Saturday offered six reasons for suspending the treaty, many of which reflected a deep bitterness in Moscow about what is perceived here as a string of broken promises as NATO expanded into the former Warsaw Pact countries after the fall of communism.

They included a claim that NATO expansion into Eastern Europe had beefed up the alliance?s military capabilities in violation of the treaty, a charge that NATO denied.

The statement said the new NATO member nations of Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia are not signatories of the treaty but have alliance weapons deployed on their territories. Russia maintains that NATO committed in 1999 to refrain from opening bases in new member countries, though now the United States is building facilities in Romania and Bulgaria. NATO says those are training sites.

Also, the statement noted that NATO governments have not ratified the 1999 amendments to the treaty, which Russia ratified in 2004. Western governments say they will not ratify them until Russia withdraws troops from the former Soviet republics of Georgia and Moldova.

In a statement, NATO said member countries would convene a task force on Monday to formulate a response.

?NATO regrets this decision,? James Appathurai, a NATO spokesman, said in a telephone interview. ?The allies consider this treaty an important foundation of European security. This is a disappointing move in the wrong direction.?

He said the treaty has no provision for suspension, only withdrawal. ?Nobody is going to be splitting hairs here and requiring Russia withdraw,? he added. He also denied that NATO?s eastward expansion left the bloc in violation of the treaty. ?All of this falls into a larger Russian concern of encirclement,? he said.

The European Union called the treaty suspension ?regrettable.? Cristina Gallach, spokeswoman for the European Union?s foreign policy chief, Javier Solana, said in a telephone interview: ?We appeal to everyone to start talking. This treaty is fundamental for the stability and security of Europe.?

In Germany, Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier said Russia?s decision ?was a real cause of concern.? Some members of Germany?s governing coalition have repeatedly criticized the American missile shield plan, saying it could lead to just such a move by Russia.

A statement posted by Russia?s Foreign Ministry said flatly that Russia would halt inspections allowed under the treaty and claim the right to redeploy heavy weaponry along its western and southern borders, but would do so only in response to any possible NATO redeployment. It also suggested that the suspension was Russia?s first official rejection of the arms limitations treaties of the Soviet Union.

A deputy foreign minister, Sergei I. Kislyak, said Russia was not ?shutting the door on dialogue? on the treaty, leaving open the possibility of a negotiated retreat from the position announced Saturday.

However, Russian commentators with ties to the Kremlin were quick to praise the suspension. ?Today?s decision is not propaganda,? Gleb O. Pavlovsky, a Kremlin-linked political analyst, said in remarks carried by Interfax. It comes ?against the backdrop of the world?s rearmament near our borders,? he said. ?If today?s message is ignored, the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty will be next.?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Is this the War President's last hurrah? Not simply satisfied with embroiling America in a conflict in the Middle East and South Asia that will last at least a decade (if not more), is Bush trying to turn back the clock on the Cold War? This can only be seen as a military contractor's dream come true; a perpetual war on terror, augmented with a reheated worldwide arms race with Asia.
 
"that the Kremlin believes encroaches into a Russian sphere of influence"

This is really what its all about. Putin and his predecessors have watched the EU and NATO gain sway over the old Eastern Bloc at the expense of their historical influence (or ability to forcibly coerce).
 
This is only the beginning. START II is DOA, and INF will probably go soon. Russia tried reaching out to the West in the 90s only to be humiliated and pushed around. Those days are gone. Now Russia will act entirely in its own strategic interest and respond adequately to NATO expansion to its borders. If NATO wants to have bases and missiles within striking distance of Russia, Russia will have bases and missiles within striking distance of NATO. That includes intermediate range missiles to target NATO installations in Europe and MIRV warheads to overwhelm any potential missile defense.
 
This also effectively kills any chance of diplomacy through the UN. We can't count on Russia's Security Council votes going our way.
 
Originally posted by: K1052
"that the Kremlin believes encroaches into a Russian sphere of influence"

This is really what its all about. Putin and his predecessors have watched the EU and NATO gain sway over the old Eastern Bloc at the expense of their historical influence (or ability to forcibly coerce).

Yup. Only the ridiculously naive and possibly mentally retarded would actually think a missile shield is the primary reason. The EU's propaganda against Russia does not help either.

The US is not the center of the world.
 
This also effective kills Nato---or at least us led Nato----everywhere you look, the neocon implementation of the project for a new American Century is misfiring on all cylinders.

As the USA still seeks to snatch defeat from the jaws of cold war victory. What we all missed when the Gorby threw in the towel on the cold war, is that Russia was finally coming to the realization that it could have guns or butter---and choose butter---and now we have all the guns and are acting like such asshats that we need more guns than we already have.
And now we pour guns, butter, and lives down all kinds of rat holes all over the world. And seem to seek more rat holes to dump our national resources into.
 
Putin already threw Bush a bone with the shield and Bush didn't bite, so this is what happens. Putin is not a good leader for Russia, but I think Bush is a worse one for the US.
 
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Putin already threw Bush a bone with the shield and Bush didn't bite, so this is what happens. Putin is not a good leader for Russia, but I think Bush is a worse one for the US.

Russians don't agree with you, they think Putin is a good leader for them.
 
Originally posted by: jpeyton
This also effectively kills any chance of diplomacy through the UN. We can't count on Russia's Security Council votes going our way.

Russia and China have always backed the rogue states in recent history. That is nothing new.

As for the developments, this is a problem, and I would make it so Europe can decide if it gets the Missile Shield. Otherwise, I'd probably say screw em over Russia's expense. I do not know why Bush pushes for it over in Europe anyway.

Case in point, why the hell are we pissing off Russia to protect Europe from a nuclear proliferation Europe supports and helped create? This is all stupid.
 

Aye it is totally retarded. The nukes in Poland will be directly connected to the US missile system. This is like if Russia had nukes aimed at the US in Canada. Of course it is totally unacceptable to the Russians and it is very understandable they are royally pissed off.

Just another "brilliant" neocon idea.

 
Back in the 1970's strategic thinkers had already thrown the idea of a missile shield in the garbage can as a particularly rotten bit of stinking thinking. Even though the idea of having missiles that could shoot down missiles was not technologically feasible then---and still not technologically feasible now----but the idea was always to reduce the number of nuclear war heads each side had. And its quite understandable to even a moron---that its far cheaper for one side to increase the number of nuclear warheads and delivery systems they possess to compensate for the few that are shot down---than it is to have a single missile that might shoot down a missile aimed at you.

Or to put it another way----if I can buy a bullet for a dime---and it cost you a thousand dollars to shoot down one of my bullets---I don't have to buy many bullets to either bankrupt you or overwhelm your defenses. And with a little luck---your enemy will bankrupt you first.

Exactly why strategic thinkers in the 1970's decided seeking a missile defense system was a stupidity that should be outlawed by treaty.

But the fact that its should be understandable to even a moron may well explain why GWB&co. are so attracted to a counterprodutive fantasy.
 
Originally posted by: Lemon law

Even though the idea of having missiles that could shoot down missiles was not technologically feasible then---and still not technologically feasible now----

That has been technologically feasible for quite some time. There are all sorts of systems that use a missile to shoot down another missile.

Are you some sort of luddite that refuses to acknowledge their existence?
 
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: Lemon law

Even though the idea of having missiles that could shoot down missiles was not technologically feasible then---and still not technologically feasible now----

That has been technologically feasible for quite some time. There are all sorts of systems that use a missile to shoot down another missile.

Are you some sort of luddite that refuses to acknowledge their existence?

We have many successful tests and keep expanding the program. To hell with those who want us on our knees technologically. The program itself is a separate matter from the retarded notion that we must deploy it over Eastern Europe.
 
I think Putin is an excellent leader.

Of course his leadership is not good for the U.S.

He is making Russia strong again.
Their military is greatly improving and Russia's economy is growing at a fast rate.
 
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: Lemon law

Even though the idea of having missiles that could shoot down missiles was not technologically feasible then---and still not technologically feasible now----

That has been technologically feasible for quite some time. There are all sorts of systems that use a missile to shoot down another missile.

Are you some sort of luddite that refuses to acknowledge their existence?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The idea that that its technologically feasible now is now debatable, but what is still not debatable is the reality that that the other side can increase their offensive capacity far cheaper than the other side can implement a defense.

What part of that reality are you having problems understanding?
 
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: Lemon law

Even though the idea of having missiles that could shoot down missiles was not technologically feasible then---and still not technologically feasible now----

That has been technologically feasible for quite some time. There are all sorts of systems that use a missile to shoot down another missile.

Are you some sort of luddite that refuses to acknowledge their existence?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The idea that that its technologically feasible now is now debatable, but what is still not debatable is the reality that that the other side can increase their offensive capacity far cheaper than the other side can implement a defense.

What part of that reality are you having problems understanding?

My post was quite simple. How can you not understand it? I'm not debating the rest of your post. I'm only referring to your bizarre claim that missiles cannot shoot down other missiles despite many countries possessing numerous systems.
 
No you are totally clueless CanOWorms,

There was never any debate that an anti missile system could not be partially effective---even in the 1970's when it was clearly beyond existing technology, the immediate and remaining reality is that if either side seeks a anti-missile system, it can only result in the other side increasing its offensive capacity far faster than the other side can increase its defenses.

And you are still are clueless about that---so is GWB&co. so you have some company----but that hardly means that you are not totally mentally retarded in failing to understand that seeking a missile defense system for the US must result in sicing far worse dangers on the USA.

Sorry, but this is my ass we are talking about---and when your defective and dangerous stinking thinking starts to endanger my safety---I get a wee might hostile. But its damn and sorry, that in a mutual assured destruction cold war GWB has decided to reignite, I somehow trust Putin a bit more than GWB. I wish as a patriotic American I could something day say something different, but there is always reality and the reality based thinking that this is and remains nothing but stinking thinking.
 
Originally posted by: GrGr
Aye. Resurrecting the nuclear holocaust specter is evil beyond measure. Wtf is wrong with Bush.

Wtf is wrong is with GWB is the national reality we fail to confront and are in denial of.
 
Originally posted by: Lemon law
No you are totally clueless CanOWorms,

There was never any debate that an anti missile system could not be partially effective---even in the 1970's when it was clearly beyond existing technology, the immediate and remaining reality is that if either side seeks a anti-missile system, it can only result in the other side increasing its offensive capacity far faster than the other side can increase its defenses.

That is irrelevant to what I am objecting to. I am solely talking about your statement that shooting a missile down with another missile is impossible. What do you not understand? There are many, many missile systems that do that on many different scales from small to large in the arsenals of many countries. Do guns not exist, too? Bullet proof vests, not possible too!

I think that perhaps you do not understand fundamentally what I'm claiming. There are other missile defense systems other than what they're trying to install in Europe that shoot down missiles with other missiles.

And you are still are clueless about that---so is GWB&co. so you have some company----but that hardly means that you are not totally mentally retarded in failing to understand that seeking a missile defense system for the US must result in sicing far worse dangers on the USA.

Sorry, but this is my ass we are talking about---and when your defective and dangerous stinking thinking starts to endanger my safety---I get a wee might hostile. But its damn and sorry, that in a mutual assured destruction cold war GWB has decided to reignite, I somehow trust Putin a bit more than GWB. I wish as a patriotic American I could something day say something different, but there is always reality and the reality based thinking that this is and remains nothing but stinking thinking.

This is my ass we are talking about too. When the US continues to support rogue regimes such as the UK and France that have vast weapons arsenals, I get hostile too. I want to be protected from them.

However, this is an issue completely different then what I'm bringing up: that there are existing systems that use a missile to stop another missile.
 
Back
Top