Russia = Soviet Union - case in point is execution of Arbi Barayev

[MadRat]

Federal troops levelled a town to kill one man. He is the centerpoint of the Chechnyan resistance. It only took the deaths of 50 innocent bystanders to pull off. No big deal for the Russians; business as usual.

I had a feeling Putin was as much a scoundrel as the past Soviet commanders. Looks like his true colours really shone through in this whole ordeal. As if levelling Grozni wasn't bad enough. Levelling poor old Alkhan-Kala pales in comparison, but is truly worse. The Russians bombed every house in the area of the suspect to make sure they got their man.

When will the world notice?

Its time to rally around Bush and his tough policies against the Russians.

 

[XMan]

The mere fact that Putin is former KGB makes me nervous. . .

 

[Pyro]

don't make the Russians look like the devil. We all know about the atrocities committed by the Americans in Vietnam, right?

At least they are crushing a rebellion in their own country and not fighting "evil commies" at the opposite end of th world.

 

[AndrewR]

As if the atrocities committed by the VC and NVA in Vietnam weren't twenty times worse and far more pervasive? STFU.

Further, Vietnam was THIRTY YEARS AGO. Chechnya is happening right now. See any difference?

 

[Pyro]

If you don't believe me, click.



<< the 1968 massacre at My Lai, Lt. William L. Calley Jr. and his troops slaughtered between 350 and 500 villagers in a daylong murderous frenzy. >>





<< the 1970 killing of 16 women and children by Americans at Son Thang >>





<< Deliberate violence against civilians was fairly common during the Vietnam War >>



if you're gonna critizise the russians, at least make sure your own army is better.

 

[Argo]

I sort of agree with Russia. What they are doing in their own country is their business. I mean those chechens are terrorists, so they have to be stopped before it's too late.

 

[shifrbv]

I think alot of people feel sorry for the Chechnyans without really knowing what it's like living in a place with terrorists willing to go to any measures to get what they want.

Case in point, my friend from Russia was leaving the Ukraine to go to Moscow and then on the way to America. On the bus from Ukraine to Moscow, they were stopped by armed Chechnyans who boarded, demanded all the money and valuables from the frightened passengers, and almost made them miss their flight which they waited over a year to get. Fortunately, this was only a minor occurance and not like the usual bombings and murders which regularly occur from the Chechnyan side.

Doesn't anyone even remember the 4 Red Cross workers who were beheaded in Chechnya in 99? None of them were Americans, but even charity workers don't stand a chance over there.

I think if people in the US had to put up with this from a nearby territory, say Alaskans being regularly bombed, murdered, and robbed from the nearby Canadians, the US would be trying to build a wall between them as well (which is what Russia has been trying to do).

 

[MadRat]

Chechnya never was a willing participant in the CCCP. Nor are they willing to admit their defeat. It is no different than a Kosovo.

 

[AndrewR]

I am well familiar with the Vietnam conflict, having read upwards of 60 books on it. You point to three incidents committed by Americans. You know what? The number of incidents committed by the VC/NVA documented by American troops far eclipses the reverse.

Want some examples of North Vietnamese atrocities? Read something about the Hanoi Hilton -- ever hear of it? You know, where the NVA completely chucked every convention of the Geneva Accords and systematically brutally tortured and executed numerous American pilots? M-fers should have been bombed into the Stone Age. The Hanoi Hilton is only one SMALL part of what they did during the war. What they did to their own people was far worse.

It's funny -- I don't ever remember reading about the VC doing massive public works projects for the peasantry. They just stashed weapons and provisions in their villages and killed them if they helped Americans or the ARVN.

As for Calley, he was put on trial for his actions. What did the VC/NVA do with their people who committed similar, if not more brutal, acts? They gave them fvcking medals.
--
Personally, I don't much care for the Chechans. If they want to revolt, go ahead, but if they want to start blowing up civilian targets, then they deserve some punishment. They bit off more than they could chew and are definitely not innocent of some atrocities against Russian troops. That doesn't excuse Russian actions in the same vein, but it does put them in a slightly different light.

 

[Pyro]

This is not about Vietnam, this is about american critizing the Russians for fighting terrorists and committing atrocities, while the american army has done the same (while not even fighting on their own soil).

The US fights terrorists, right? they just executed McVeigh, but if another country fights terrorists such as the chechens or the KLA then they are evil.

You guys need to learn to let other countries deal with their own problems.

 

[extra]

hmm, think our country is any better? waco? ruby ridge? hmm?

oh ya, and what about our civil war? the south just wanted to cecede, what right did we have to make them stay with us? sound like what's going on in russia right now? sorry, what's wrong with russia right now is that people aren't used to being able to make choices, and the mob runs the country...

 

[MadRat]

Whats right is to not blow up people because they don't want you controlling them. This is exactly the diplomacy Russia has chosen since the beginning. Civilian targets are okay by the Russian standards, especially when they get their man. You dipsticks that think its okay to murder have some real amorale attitudes.

 

[glenn1]

Pyro, the day when your home country (Canada) starts being the country whose armed forces are relied on to defend the peace and prosperity of the entire globe, and occassionally pull the bacon of friendly countries out of the fire, then you Canucks can start lecturing Americans. Until then, why don't you shut up, go back to eating poutine and drinking Moosehead, and let us do what we have to do without complaining?

 

[Pyro]

<< Whats right is to not blow up people because they don't want you controlling them. This is exactly the diplomacy Russia has chosen since the beginning. Civilian targets are okay by the Russian standards, especially when they get their man. You dipsticks that think its okay to murder have some real amorale attitudes. >>



my my, aren't we a little forgetful about all the &quot;collateral damage&quot; in Serbia? A trainful of people, a bus full of people...tsk tsk tsk.

Or will you try to tell me that oil refineries, car factories, fuel storage and fertilizer plants (which NATO targeted during kosovo war) are ALL military targets?
So what you're trying to tell me that its perfectly OK for NATO to target civilian targets, but god forbid the Russians ever do it, since they are SOOOOO evil.

glenn, it seems most americans think its their &quot;duty&quot; to protect the &quot;free&quot; world. Well guess what, its NOT. The US gets involved because of their own political/economical reasons, and not because they are being nice to the poor little countries, OK?

 

[FettsBabe]

Vietnam is in the past. The Russian execution is happening right NOW!

I don't support Americans when we kill either. No double standard here!

 

[SCUBA]

50 innocent bystanders
50 ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
from where do u get ur info can u give me the site please ..........

 

[Pyro]

<< Vietnam is in the past. The Russian execution is happening right NOW!

I don't support Americans when we kill either. No double standard here! >>



Kosovo happened in 99 and much of the same things happened there as well.

its good to know some people have their heads on straight

 

[sandorski]

Hmm, the US and it's allies, including my country(Canada), flattened Iraq to get to Hussein. Only difference is that Hussein is as entrenched as ever and every now and then we like to re-arrange the rubble a bit.

Glenn1: Please please. Canada has been involved in *every* UN Peace Mission. We know a thing or two about keeping peace and defending freedom. Hell, we get involved even when we have no &quot;National Interest&quot;. We have lost lives in places that will never benefit our corporations or economy. When the US starts acting selflessly, come back because then your statements will carry some weight.

 

[StageLeft]

What ever happened to &quot;special forces&quot;, ie. precision attack? Killing 50 to get to one is atrocious.

sandorski

Touche! You got me on that one...There must be a difference between this and Iraq...must be...must be...

 

[glenn1]

<< Canada has been involved in *every* UN Peace Mission. We know a thing or two about keeping peace and defending freedom. Hell, we get involved even when we have no &quot;National Interest&quot;. We have lost lives in places that will never benefit our corporations or economy. When the US starts acting selflessly, come back because then your statements will carry some weight. >>



I know that. Pyro evidently does not. And when he stops acting the part of an overbearing eliteist a**hole that is an uncritical Russian apologist who simply likes to bash the US for perceived and actual wrongs, i'll start giving HIS statements some weight. I don't have a problem with Canada in general, only certain Canadians, those who like to bash Americans.

 

[AaronP]

Putin former KGB. Well Bush Sr. = former CIA.

 

[Pyro]

<< I know that. Pyro evidently does not. And when he stops acting the part of an overbearing eliteist a**hole that is an uncritical Russian apologist who simply likes to bash the US for perceived and actual wrongs, i'll start giving HIS statements some weight. I don't have a problem with Canada in general, only certain Canadians, those who like to bash Americans. >>



I don't like to bash all americans, just some hypocritical bastards who think they are above everyone else.

People like you love to think what the US does is good for everyone else. When the US targets civilan buildings, its ok, when the russians do it, its time to rally behind bush and let the world notice.

and apparently, US atrocities don't actually count since they took place over 30 years ago. yeah, great argument.

 

[MadRat]

SCUBA-

I read it fresh off the AP wire. CNN had a similar report early this morning although they cited far fewer numbers of dead. The report cited 60 civilians, 150 federal troops, and 20 rebels including Barayev. Evidently they had their own troops move in, encircle the rebels into killzones, then proceded to airstrike the entire town. I didn't want to bring up the idea that they'd murder their own kind to kill the rebel. People have a hard enough time with the idea that they murdered 50+ civilians.

Pyro-

I never said that it was okay to bomb Serbia, eh? You are really positioning yourself as the village idiot with your irrational arguments. The truth is that the Serbian targets did include alot of civilian targets. They also involved two Chinese reporters surgically eliminated, within the Chinese embassy, with cruise missiles. You also forgot the attack on the convoy of hayrack-towing tractors that left around 30 dead. We could go on and on. All of them innocent bystanders. We could also go on and point out the 100,000 civilians that died needlessly in the Yugoslavian civil war. Again, all for the wrong reasons. One tragedy does not justify another.

 

[UNCjigga]

Actually Glenn1, the Canadian armed forces have been involved in many more humanitarian missions than US troops. We send our boys on peacekeeping missions to keep civil unrest to a minimum in other countries while Congress here decides whether saving other people's lives is in their 'national interest'. An excerpt from the Canadian Dept. of Defense web site:

Canadian troops have served in such places as Kashmir (1949-79), West New Guinea (1962-63), and Yemen (1963-64). They helped secure peace in the Congo (1960-64). They twice stood between Egyptians and Israelis in the Sinai (1956-67 and 1973-79) and they assisted Namibia's transition to independence (1989-90). Most recently, they formed part of the UN Protection Force (UNPROFOR) in the former Yugoslavia (1992-1995).

Canada has also participated in non-UN peacekeeping, including two missions in Indochina (1954-74 and 1973), the Multinational Force and Observers (MFO) in the Sinai (since 1986), and the European Community Monitoring Mission (ECMM) in the former Yugoslavia (1991-94).

Quite distinct from peacekeeping were the Korean conflict (1950-53) and the War in the Persian Gulf (1990-91), both fought as a result of UN resolutions. In Korea, 27,000 Canadians served, and suffered more than 1,600 casualties, including 516 deaths. Some 4,500 Canadians served in the Gulf War, mercifully without battle casualties.

As of October 1997, and excluding the Korean War, 104 Canadians have died while on peacekeeping and related operations.

In addition to the missions listed here, Canadian peacekeepers have been involved in Cyprus and a number of smaller nations that Americans deem insignificant.

Remember, the Canadians go in when there's no threat to American investments, American life or American precedents. They also do it without telling others how to do their jobs.

 

[SuperTool]

I sorta feel bad about the Chechens. But I think they brought it on themselves, by supporting terrorists and separatism. It was pretty clear that Russia would not let them split off easily. Anyways, they won the war initially, and had de-facto independence. But then they blew it. They went into Dagestan and tried to incite revolts there. Maybe Russia would have stood by if Chechens tried to be independent themselves, but Clearly they couldn't let it spread to other areas. So a show of force was clearly in order.
50 people in the long scheme of things is not that many, considering that something like 100,000 have already died in the conflict, and that Russia has essentially leveled Chechnya, and that this conflict has been going on for more then 200 years already, ever since Russia came into Chechnya. Also, there are a whole bunch of Bin Laden types using Chechnya as a battleground with total disregard for the civilians there.
I respect their drive to independence, but there is a price to pay for freedom, and I think at this point the price is too high for them to stomach, and I don't think it's worth extinction of your own nation.