Russia on brink of ... NOPE! Russia INVADES Ukraine!

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Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,382
7,445
136
Still, simply balancing the scales may be a loosing strategy. Maybe the lesser evil is to take the chance that MAD doesnt happen - and end it.

The alternative


That's up to Turkey.
We cannot take the Black Sea without their explicit approval.
And I cannot imagine they'd ever agree to open war against Russia.
 

Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
15,332
7,792
136
That's up to Turkey.
We cannot take the Black Sea without their explicit approval.
And I cannot imagine they'd ever agree to open war against Russia.
We can take out the entire Black Sea fleet from the Med. Also, Crimea's defenses (Unless obscurely bunkered and left offline for later use). May after that Turkey would let us through. Putin would lose his shit and possibly go ballistic.

I wonder have to wonder if we have an agreement with Putin, no US boots on the ground, no US combat aircraft in Ukraine, no US sea power in the Black Sea and no nukes from Russia.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
14,452
9,837
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But I am sure Russia knows this, who is the theatre for? Is it just the unspoken unwritten red line in the sand? Its sounds very convoluted.
No one in the US calls for expanding the war because Russia blew up some of our equipment. If they started torturing our POWs, though, they would be a lot of demand for expansion.
 
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pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
12,974
7,891
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Yes, we're basically following the Vietnam model just from the other side. The Soviets gave a mountain of arms and trained the NVA in their use. Arguably they were more directly involved on occasion but we probably are as well and that info just won't come out for decades.


Isn't that also the (first) Afghan war model?

Probably getting into Science-Fiction here, but I have wondered, when weapons systems become nearly-fully-autonomous, and AI-based, does the boundary between providing equipment to a combatant, and actively participating in a war, become a little blurred?

If the equipment provided takes the form of Skynet-level autonomous drones or robotic, self-directed, AFVs, is that still just "weapons" or is it an army?
 

Michael

Elite member
Nov 19, 1999
5,435
234
106

Many posters here like to bash Fox News. Editorial from the WSJ (owned by Fox) pushing for more rockets delivered more quickly to Ukraine.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,512
29,099
146

Many posters here like to bash Fox News. Editorial from the WSJ (owned by Fox) pushing for more rockets delivered more quickly to Ukraine.

WSJ opinion section is only ever virulent rightwing pablum. Remember, this is the same opinion rag that lauded Trump's efforts to extort Zelensky, absolutely damaging Ukraine against Putin, so that Trump could gain some political wind. This is called treason and absolutely deserving of impeachment and conviction; WSJ argued that it wasn't.

They don't get to make any claims as to the US efforts to get weapons to help Ukraine. They don't.
 

Dave_5k

Golden Member
May 23, 2017
1,559
3,039
136

Many posters here like to bash Fox News. Editorial from the WSJ (owned by Fox) pushing for more rockets delivered more quickly to Ukraine.
Editorial authors don't particularly care about Ukraine or the rockets, just wanted another opportunity to bash Biden from both sides. Meanwhile team treason on Fox still bashing Biden for getting involved at all... (or rather, not getting involved on the side of Russia)
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
45,896
32,696
136
The WSJ piece besides being Biden bashing motivated is uniformed. A single HIMARS truck could easily burn through a couple hundred rockets a day. Four trucks could do a thousand no sweat. I think from a practical standpoint servicing more than a couple dozen launchers with a steady supply of rockets is going to be problematic given the logistics involved.
 

Leeea

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2020
3,599
5,340
106
Russian Media: Russia has kidnapped 307,000 children from Ukraine:
The Russian military reported that more than 1.9 million people, including over 307,000 children, have been evacuated to Russia


a quick reminder what being "evacuated" to Russia actually means:


International humanitarian law classifies the forced mass deportation of people during a conflict as a war crime. "Forcibly transfering children" in particular qualifies as genocide, the most serious of war crimes, under the 1948 Genocide Convention that outlawed the intent to destroy - in whole or in part - a national, ethnic, racial or religious group.



Required personal opinion:
Kill all Russia soldiers, paramilitary forces, and members of the Putin regime.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,512
29,099
146
Russian Media: Russia has kidnapped 307,000 children from Ukraine:



a quick reminder what being "evacuated" to Russia actually means:






Required personal opinion:
Kill all Russia soldiers, paramilitary forces, and members of the Putin regime.

Remember, though: Putin has already declared that Ukrainians aren't real people, so it's all justified.



Gee, wonder where we've seen this exact same thing play out before? Hmmm, I feel like it's right there, on the tip of my tongue....hmm
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,049
12,719
136
Russian Media: Russia has kidnapped 307,000 children from Ukraine:



a quick reminder what being "evacuated" to Russia actually means:






Required personal opinion:
Kill all Russia soldiers, paramilitary forces, and members of the Putin regime.
This needs to end.
At some point it must become valid to indict the Russian people as well, you cant just be an innocent bystander while dear leader grows an Adolf mustache… You are required to act.
 

Michael

Elite member
Nov 19, 1999
5,435
234
106
The WSJ piece besides being Biden bashing motivated is uniformed. A single HIMARS truck could easily burn through a couple hundred rockets a day. Four trucks could do a thousand no sweat. I think from a practical standpoint servicing more than a couple dozen launchers with a steady supply of rockets is going to be problematic given the logistics involved.

It is a matter of having the weapons at more than one theatre / battle at once. To attack the concentrations along the coast to the south is much easier logistics.

The East is much harder to supply.

Otherwise not surprised in the forum (that I have been posting in since it was created) to have immediate bashing of the “other side” somehow is not fitting to the stereotype.

Criticizing the choice of tiny supply is valid and not “Biden bashing”.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,049
12,719
136
It is a matter of having the weapons at more than one theatre / battle at once. To attack the concentrations along the coast to the south is much easier logistics.

The East is much harder to supply.

Otherwise not surprised in the forum (that I have been posting in since it was created) to have immediate bashing of the “other side” somehow is not fitting to the stereotype.

Criticizing the choice of tiny supply is valid and not “Biden bashing”.
Well you gotta recognize that the US is dancing their own Adolf game right now with the Trumpian right… and make no mistake about it, the right wing newsoutlets that is Biden bashing is only doing it cause the calculus is in their favor and the SECOND Trump takes office 2024, should the war god forbid last that long, all the aid stops from the US. Hell Trump is on record that he wouldnt have honored NATO article 5 if Putin moved on the Baltics.
The Reicht in the US is NOT team Ukraine.
If Ukraine can utilize more and the logistics is feasible, I agree, Ukraine should have it all.
Is Biden holding back? If so, why?
 
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K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
45,896
32,696
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It is a matter of having the weapons at more than one theatre / battle at once. To attack the concentrations along the coast to the south is much easier logistics.

The East is much harder to supply.

Otherwise not surprised in the forum (that I have been posting in since it was created) to have immediate bashing of the “other side” somehow is not fitting to the stereotype.

Criticizing the choice of tiny supply is valid and not “Biden bashing”.

The UK is also supplying 4 M270 launchers plus training. Given the ranges involved and capabilities servicing multiple theatres doesn’t seem like a problem. Training for the next 60 soldiers on HIMARS is supposed to begin basically now and they are only taking a couple weeks. Pentagon says more systems are likely to be supplied. By early July they probably will be operating more than a dozen systems. Keeping them in rockets will be the hardest part.

It is an editorial not a straight news piece so I certainly can be critical of its bent, which it has.
 

Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
15,332
7,792
136
This needs to end.
At some point it must become valid to indict the Russian people as well, you cant just be an innocent bystander while dear leader grows an Adolf mustache… You are required to act.
I would phrase it more like 'they (Russian People) are culpable if they don't act'. With Putin's approval rating at around 80%, they prefer defacto culpability. A mitigating factor is that Russia has cracked down so heavily on independent and western media, that many are living in an alternate reality.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,512
29,099
146
It is a matter of having the weapons at more than one theatre / battle at once. To attack the concentrations along the coast to the south is much easier logistics.

The East is much harder to supply.

Otherwise not surprised in the forum (that I have been posting in since it was created) to have immediate bashing of the “other side” somehow is not fitting to the stereotype.

Criticizing the choice of tiny supply is valid and not “Biden bashing”.

no one cares how long you've been anywhere.

it validates nothing.

you became offended at something that has nothing to do with you, and yet you took it personally, thus biasing this response of yours against the point of the retorts.

grow up.
 

KMFJD

Lifer
Aug 11, 2005
29,044
41,733
136
b4P3xfL.jpg


Just released in Poland
 
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Michael

Elite member
Nov 19, 1999
5,435
234
106
no one cares how long you've been anywhere.

it validates nothing.

you became offended at something that has nothing to do with you, and yet you took it personally, thus biasing this response of yours against the point of the retorts.

grow up.
Follow your example of maturity?

I think I will continue on my path, as you are incapable of seeing not a validation of anything but an observation that nothing has changed over such a long time.

I simply pointed out that the simple stance that one side of American politics/media is bad in regards to the Ukraine lacks a real foundation.

The last President made it quite clear that Europe was underspending on defense and that gap is being made clearer today.

And the German lagging is being made even more clear now.

I think there is pretty good political will to deal with the threat of Russia on both sides of the American political fence.
 
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