Russia on brink of ... NOPE! Russia INVADES Ukraine!

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Dave_5k

Golden Member
May 23, 2017
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Formal official confirmation that the latest Ukrainian aid package from the US will include drones, although not specifics on type. From CNN:

Biden went on to detail what is in the package and how it will be used.

"This new package, on its own, is going to provide unprecedented assistance to Ukraine. ...
Biden added, that the aid will also include drones, "which demonstrates our commitment to sending our must cutting edge systems to Ukraine for its defense."
 
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senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
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I don't see this as a great deal for the Ukraine, given their leverage now. They probably could have made something close to this deal before dealing Russia a defeat. Now they should ask for more. There needs to be some solution to the Donbas conflict, withdrawal of Russian recognition of LNR and DNR independence, and withdrawal of Russian forces and backing from there. Leaving LNR and DNR in place is like leaving gangrene on the body of the Ukraine.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
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I don't see this as a great deal for the Ukraine, given their leverage now. They probably could have made something close to this deal before dealing Russia a defeat. Now they should ask for more. There needs to be some solution to the Donbas conflict, withdrawal of Russian recognition of LNR and DNR independence, and withdrawal of Russian forces and backing from there. Leaving LNR and DNR in place is like leaving gangrene on the body of the Ukraine.
Crimea as well. Nothing less than a full withdrawal from all regions formerly held by Ukraine should be considered acceptable.
 
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Number1

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2006
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Formal official confirmation that the latest Ukrainian aid package from the US will include drones, although not specifics on type. From CNN:

Biden went on to detail what is in the package and how it will be used.

"This new package, on its own, is going to provide unprecedented assistance to Ukraine. ...
Biden added, that the aid will also include drones, "which demonstrates our commitment to sending our must cutting edge systems to Ukraine for its defense."
What type of drones can they send ?
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
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My wife and I were talking about the post-conflict Ukraine assuming victory and just the mess that country will have to deal with.

Like right now we are fixated on just a binary win/loss getting Russia out. But the long term clean up Ukraine will face. Those 3 million people that left, how many have homes let alone a village to come back to. All of the dud mortars/missiles/mines/military garbage left. Bodies. Destroyed infrastructure. Just the entirety of chaos and destruction we can't really fathom. And then you have the civil concern of what to do with Russian apologists still in your borders.

Even victory is going to be bittersweet for that poor country to pick up the shambles it's left with.

Pain and vengeance will echo through as extremism and terrorism in the decades to follow. None of us will live to see a peaceful Ukraine.
 

Dave_5k

Golden Member
May 23, 2017
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What type of drones can they send ?
"Drones" covers everything from remote piloted aircraft like the Predators at the high end, to anti-personnel Switchblade 300 at the low end (or even battlefield surveillance drones at very low end).

Best guess is the quote a couple posts up on it being mostly/entirely Switchblade 600's - up to 50 mile range, loitering suicide drone with advanced targeting capability - basically a javelin-lite warhead put into an aerial surveillance drone that is extremely difficult to shoot down & can be carried by a single soldier.

US marines are looking at the switchblade as a complete replacement for artillery warfare - making everything up to 120mm mortars for infantry obsolete.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
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As it stands right now Putin can, and will, win this war. Russia tried to win this war in a fast push but that failed, they are now digging in for a siege.
UKr is fighting a defensive war, they have basically no way to strike back at Russia. Once Russia moves this to a bombing campaign they can just keep pounding them for years or even decades.
Ukraine can only win such a war by breaking the will of the Russian people to fight. And with the State controlled media, and the willingness to ruthlessly stamp down protest, that will not happen quickly.
This is my nightmare scenario as well. The real nightmare part is us standing on the sidelines, watching, doing nothing... Well not nothing, but not enough.
 
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cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
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Same as I told Jakalas...they're accepting foreign volunteers...sign up today.

And when they tap the NG I am there.
And as I told someone else.. Fuck taxes, you like taxes so much, give them your money, leave mine alone.
You gotta realize its some fucked up bullshit to put forth? That you cant speak in favor of an armed response unless, checks notes, unless you're able to pick up that rifle yourself? Hey Boomer... By that definition your foreign policy is determined by those who is currently serving and noone else, ie. NOT YOU.
Apples. They good?
 

Iron Woode

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 10, 1999
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This is kind of heartbreaking:


Pets don't always deal well with such extreme upheavals in their lives. People also forget that animals are also victims in this war. Livestock have no clue what's going on and end up suffering and dying needlessly. The humanitarian crisis must be first and center but please keep in mind the innocent animals caught up in this violence.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,786
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Crimea as well. Nothing less than a full withdrawal from all regions formerly held by Ukraine should be considered acceptable.
That won't happen while Putin is in charge. It's more of a property rights issue than active conflict though, because of geographic separation, and can be handled through sanctions to achieve regime change in Russia afterwards. Donbass is continuing direct conflict with troops facing across a large front line on the territory of the Ukraine. That needs to be addressed in cease fire agreement now, not left smoldering.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
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Donbass, Crimea, doesnt matter, once Ukraine is part of EU and begins to prosper, those borders wont mean shit.
Of course a Putin regime will try to poison ALL the waters, so there is that.
 

pete6032

Diamond Member
Dec 3, 2010
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Why were these more advanced weapons not sent initially? Fear of them falling into Russian hands if Ukraine fell?
 
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K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
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Why were these more advanced weapons not sent initially? Fear of them falling into Russian hands if Ukraine fell?

There was fairly broad consensus in the west that more advanced weapons would antagonize Putin and cause more problems. He was already butthurt about the Javelins. That of course has changed.
 

Roger Wilco

Diamond Member
Mar 20, 2017
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Does it require much training to operate these drones? If so, this may be a “first batch.”

Also, these things haven’t seen active combat yet, right?
 

Atari2600

Golden Member
Nov 22, 2016
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Assuming this went through holy shit what a defeat for Putin.

Deeper integration with Europe and likely EU accession all but certain. We can easily rearm Ukraine with more soon so be surplus Russian weapons and rebuild their native arms industry which was already pretty capable.


Do you actually trust the Russians to withdraw?

Or do you think they'll not use the break in hostilities to attempt resupply?

They lied about not going into Ukraine. Why would they not lie when they say they are getting out?


Of course, situation is terrible in some of the besieged areas. But if it sounds too good to be true....


----------------------
Not talked about in your post, but came later - just dealing with it here:

The talked about security guarantees aren't worth 2 flying f___s [rhymes with rucks].

The Budapest Memorandum was supposed to protect the territorial integrity of Ukraine for them giving up their nuclear weapons.
Signatories were Russia, the UK and the US.

The cheque written in 1994 bounced in 2022. If you were Ukraine, why the hell would you go ask the same people for another cheque?
 
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fleshconsumed

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2002
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I came across this account of a family evacuating in a car from the smaller city of Rubizhne and were gunned down by Azovs. The young woman's father is now dead. They're being interviewed in a hospital, some of them wounded. Had a Russian soldier not helped as they were pinned down by gunfire it could've went even worse for them.

Sadly this story is not unique. There are many such accounts and witnesses of the inhuman nature of the Nazi nationalists.

One reason the Nazis in WW2 were so inhumane is that many of them were meth addicts. Over time, Meth changes the stucture of the brain significantly, and in a very inhuman way. They loose any sense of compassion. I have more than a hunch that the same is happening here, and that there are many methheads within the Azov battalion, which is a big part of the reason these attrocities are being committed.
As has been pointed out South Front is yellow pages at best, and Russian front at worst.

Additionally, I speak Russian and nowhere do those people say it was Azov forces that attacked them. Old woman at one point mentioned "your soldiers", and younger woman mentioned "our boys [soldiers]" when talking about who directed them to safety. I do not doubt that they lost family member, but they never said who actually did it.

So go peddle your bullshit somewhere else.
 

Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
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"As darkness fell March 2, Mr. Rudenko, who owns a company transporting gravel and sand, took cover in a grove on the wheat field’s edge under pouring rain. The Russian tanks there would fire into Voznesensk and immediately drive a few hundred yards away to escape return fire, he said.

Mr. Rudenko was on the phone with a Ukrainian artillery unit. Sending coordinates via the Viber social-messaging app, he directed artillery fire at the Russians. So did other local Territorial Defense volunteers around the city. "

I never considered "Can direct artillery fire" as a feature of my cell phone before
 

thilanliyan

Lifer
Jun 21, 2005
11,848
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Wow - if an actual deal happens on these terms this is effectively a Russian surrender. Essentially the only thing Ukraine is giving up is the ability to join NATO, which already wasn't happening. So essentially Russia nuked its economy, watched its army be humiliated in front of the whole world, and got thousands of people killed for what amounts to a return to the antebellum status quo.
I think Putin needs to go...he'll just wait for a new opportunity and do something similar. With him still in power nothing will change in terms of relations with the west.