K1052
Lifer
- Aug 21, 2003
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Some signs of what most people think will be another painful but inevitable cave from a moronic position.
Umm, I'm pretty sure Germany doesn't have any (legal) basis at all to stop other countries from training whoever they want on the Leopard - the restrictions are against re-export of the tanks.
K1052
Lifer
- Aug 21, 2003
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Likely not but the messaging is only headed in one direction. I also wouldn't be broken up if Polish Leopards mysteriously disappeared from training grounds while the Pole instructors were out grabbing a beer.
Alternative scheme at this point might be buying retired Challenger 1s from Jordan (edit: and/or Oman) and quick rehabbing them in Czechia.
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dainthomas
Lifer
- Dec 7, 2004
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Jaskalas
Lifer
- Jun 23, 2004
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And I honestly do not know what they have for equipment. I just know that they appear to be not just doubling down on the invasion, but they transitioned to a war time economy and are thrusting their entire existence into this campaign. Such is the warning I expect we gave Ukraine, as the news channels are picking up on.
CIA director briefed Zelensky on US expectations for Russia’s battlefield planning
Brovane
Diamond Member
- Dec 18, 2001
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This is just typical how Russians do a war. They keep throwing conscript soldiers at the enemy until they either run out of soldiers or they breakthrough.
Russia has forgotten that their demographics of young men in Russia available for conscription isn't as deep and available as it was in prior decades. Russia had a huge demographics program and this War is going to make it a catastrophic problem for them. At this point we are probably witnessing the end of Russia as a nation.
JTsyo
Lifer
- Nov 18, 2007
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If I was Russia and I had a 500k conscript army to work with. I would create a wide front (Belarus to Crimea) to have the defenders spread out. Then push at the weakened defense where I wanted land (Donbas most likely) with a core of what's left of the professional army. Take what I could before the defenders rallied and then just hold.
RnR_au
Golden Member
- Jun 6, 2021
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I wonder how many foreign soldiers have disobeyed orders to go and help Ukraine?
kage69
Lifer
- Jul 17, 2003
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"We" again is it? This is so sad. Seriously, do you share your account with someone else, or maybe just drink a lot before you post? The inability to grasp some very simple concepts here is unfortunate, it's almost like you don't remember the many times this has been covered. In this thread. To you. Repeatedly.
I'm not interesting in your drama, queen.
You are still pretending false attribution is an argument, still ignoring your only ways to refute my points. You were asked to explain how Americans killing Russians, which you advocate, wasn't World War III. It was implied you should explain how World War III helps the defense of Ukraine. Until you can address those questions, I don't give a fuck what you find shameful. All I'm hearing from you is idealistic bullshit, with no understanding of what real war is. Yet here you are, again, crying about Americans not dying for a cause you yourself won't fight for. Spare us your tears liar, or have you finally located any posts of mine that support this fiction of me not wanting Ukrainian victory?
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woolfe9998
Lifer
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Is the Leopard better than the Abrams?
Top 10 Main Battle Tanks | Military-Today.com
List of 10 greatest main battle tanks in the world. Analysis is based on combined score of MBT protection, firepower, accuracy and mobility.
www.military-today.com
K1052
Lifer
- Aug 21, 2003
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The 2A7 is probably about on par though I have some questions about the armor. There are not many of these out in the world right now either. Most countries have older standard A4s and A5s plus some locally upgraded models. The best mass available tank is going to be the M1A2 SEPv3 right now. The K2 is impressive if not yet battle tested and only a few hundred made so far.
General Dynamics seems to want to ditch the turbine and move to hybrid diesel systems for their next evolution. This would save a ton of fuel and be simpler to fix.
Brovane
Diamond Member
- Dec 18, 2001
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It depends because their is so many different variants of the Leopard 2 and the Abrams tanks. The latest versions are fairly evenly matched in hardware. However what the US equipment going for it is the digital integration with all the other US hardware that allows US hardware from the Bradley's, Abrams to the Apache's to all fight together as a unit which gives the US a force multiplier effect. The US military doesn't fight fair and doesn't fight alone, they bring friends with them.
kage69
Lifer
- Jul 17, 2003
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An M864 out of a 52 cal can hit +50km I think. Big ol chamber yeah, but Excalibur has that cool gas generator in the base, so it bleeds gas into the wake to kill turbulence and drops that base drag. Hello extra range. Now the newer ones have semi active laser targeting for moving targets. Aw yeah, accurate to under 2m. Catch, Yuri.
I just hope they have all the air burst munitions they need. Russia needs to learn a lesson on human waves the way the Chinese and NKs did in the 50s.
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kage69
Lifer
- Jul 17, 2003
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All true. Combined arms aside though, if I had to pick one to ride into a fight, I'd still go with the Abrams.
kage69
Lifer
- Jul 17, 2003
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woolfe9998
Lifer
- Apr 8, 2013
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Pretty sure the list was basing it off whatever is the best version of each tank right now.
It makes a lot of sense to standardize Ukraine on one new western tank that is widely available.
If Germany is going to block German tanks which would be the most logical widely available option (exactly who else is Germany/Europe going to need to deter from invading in a land war... other than Russia?), lets start training them up on the upgraded M1A2 SEP v3 and begin deploying several battalions to Poland for handover. Its not like we're going to invade China with them anyway, and Biden only has another 8 months of lend-lease to transfer equipment to Ukraine.
If Germany is going to block German tanks which would be the most logical widely available option (exactly who else is Germany/Europe going to need to deter from invading in a land war... other than Russia?), lets start training them up on the upgraded M1A2 SEP v3 and begin deploying several battalions to Poland for handover. Its not like we're going to invade China with them anyway, and Biden only has another 8 months of lend-lease to transfer equipment to Ukraine.
While they did have conscription in WW2, in 1944/1945 they had really good doctrine, combined arms deployment better than anyone arguably, and were again arguably the masters of large scale manoeuvre warfare. What this war really is, is a regression to Imperial Russian tactics/strategy.
If they had the military that they thought they had and it was properly employed the map would look a lot different now. A proper thrust on the four oblasts they purport to have annexed very well may have succeeded, along with taking the coast right through to Transnistria.
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Indus
Diamond Member
- May 11, 2002
- 7,863
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Quite a few have gone to help Russia too.. I only hope they end up in the meatgrinder.
- Oct 9, 1999
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Bitek
Lifer
- Aug 2, 2001
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