Russia on brink of ... NOPE! Russia INVADES Ukraine!

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Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
46,573
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Here's one encapsulation of the thinking on denying Ukraine. Not exactly news, I know.

Despite my deep (and deeply emotional) desire to give the Ukranians, currently suffering and dying, military and civilian alike, everything they need to end their suffering and dying, I'm still not really sure where I come down on all this.


"One thing above all others has influenced the debate within the administration over what weapons system to give Ukraine: Russia’s restraint in keeping the war contained.

Russia has steadily increased the brutality and breadth of its attacks against Ukraine, killing civilians on the march to Kyiv, the capital, deporting children from occupied areas and now trying to break the will of the Ukrainians by attacking the electrical infrastructure to plunge the country into cold and darkness.

But Moscow so far has not let its war spill over into NATO territory. American officials continue to insist they have seen nothing that indicates Russia has decided to expand its attacks beyond Ukraine.

There have been no stepped-up cyberattacks by Russian intelligence agencies on NATO allies, and no evidence that Russia has conducted any sabotage attacks on allied countries.

Mr. Putin’s unwillingness to fight NATO directly has been key to the alliance’s ability to supply Ukraine with a steady flow of arms and ammunition, the very supplies that have kept Kyiv in the fight. Mr. Putin has shown he will accept high levels of international support for Ukraine, as long as those weapons are used in Ukraine. That, U.S. officials said, is the critical calculus: whether Mr. Putin will see a weapons system as something meant to attack Moscow, or something meant to be used inside Ukraine.

It is important, these U.S. officials say, not to give Mr. Putin an excuse to expand the war."
 
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Indus

Lifer
May 11, 2002
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Now I know we made fun of daily kos before but this might make sense in response to the development above

 
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rommelrommel

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2002
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“Mr. Putin’s unwillingness to fight NATO directly has been key to the alliance’s ability to supply Ukraine with a steady flow of arms and ammunition, the very supplies that have kept Kyiv in the fight.”

And he’s gonna remain unwilling to fight NATO directly so long as NATO doesn’t get into the business of directly killing Russians. He’s really got no choice but to not fight NATO because NATO is just way out of his league.

One thing the west has to figure out is that we really are the 900 lb gorilla in Europe, especially when defending allies.
 

Braznor

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2005
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It's not a question of survival, it's that we are your largest trading partner and you are...uhmm... not ours.
Eh, I'm able to joke about these things with my literate and self-aware Indian friends, because I can also joke about the stupid ridiculous and horrible things about my own country.

I'm not full of undeserved pride like you are. I am capable of critical thinking. I can read, and I hang out with people that are also capable of these same adult things.

I never once insulted the Indian people. I criticized a failure of leadership and perhaps a more collective failure to effectively prioritize actual peoples' needs above selfish, personal desires for the very few.

Long before this thread you had called me a Muslim family killer and other such nonsensical names and now you are preaching to me about a prideful attitude. .

The Indian people have bled enough for the West.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Bengal-famine-of-1943
 

Braznor

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2005
4,619
409
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You do that shit to yourself dude WITHOUT ANY HELP FROM ANYONE..
You been caught pulling claims out of your ass and now you are yelling like a hyena about a perceived slight of my mere words? Emmm How sensitive.

Now you took back your words and acting llke none of that happened?
Ha ha Good try :rolleyes:



Not gonna apologize to a Russian apologist who's clearly intent on making Americans look bad when we're not the ones committing atrocities like this:

Hello, the Americans did that to themselves. You think I make the Americans look bad by my words. Lets see you abandoned Afghanistan recently. You abandoned the Kurds recently. Thats two allies are already betrayed. After multiple invasions of the region and thats just these past two decades. Your deeds did that to you. Not my words, but Russia is guilty in this as you. There is no apologizing for Russia or any other country involved here.
 

Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
20,488
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The WSJ goes into some depth about how Putin gradually reduced his sources of information until he built a system that would inevitably lead to a crisis of some sort - it just happened to be Ukraine because thats what Putin wanted next. While the seizure of Crimea was a major shift for this internally and certainly a wake up call for Ukraine it started long before that. If you wanted power and money you played up your accomplishments, downplayed anything negative and sabotaged your neighboring officials. Putin wanted to believe that Ukrainians loved him and Russia and that the Ukrainian army wouldn't fight so thats what people told him to gain favor and status. Anyone who didn't was marginalized. Thats how the Russian secret service (FSO) ended up doing polling about support for the war instead of the Russian Public Opinion Research Center. And the FSB doing more invasion planning than the military.

A dose of paranoia and delusion helps too
Battlefield updates can take several days to reach Mr. Putin’s desk, leaving them often out of date, people familiar with the matter said. Front-line commanders report to the Federal Security Service, or FSB, the successor to the KGB, which edits reports for experts at the Security Council, who pass them to Council Secretary Nikolai Patrushev, the arch hawk who helped persuade Mr. Putin to invade Ukraine. He, in turn, passes the reports to Mr. Putin.

The president increasingly speaks of Russia in near-religious terms, as a 1,000-year-old civilization waging a holy struggle that will right historical wrongs and elevate him into a pantheon of conquering czarist leaders such as Peter the Great.

As the circle tightened, Mr. Putin became increasingly paranoid, convinced that the U.S. was stationing nuclear weapons in Ukraine, U.S. officials familiar with the matter said. Messrs. Gerasimov and Shoigu, who retained access to Mr. Putin, lacked influence to moderate his views, the officials said.

In July 2021, Mr. Putin published a 6,917-word historical essay on the Ukrainian nation, penned in isolation with Mr. Kovalchuk by his side.

Haha ok...
In 2018, Mr. Putin, who began to speak of Russia as a military power equal to the U.S.

 
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Leeea

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2020
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Valiant Ukrainian heros protect all free people by repelling the orc hordes for another day:
Slava Ukraini
 

Leeea

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2020
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A shattered column of Ukrainian vehicles most likely in the east:

We need to directly intervene and end the orc threat once and for all.

Short of that, we need to send the valiant defenders of freedom in Ukraine every advanced weapon we can get our hands on, including ICBMs. Russia has shatterred the Budapest Memorandum, it is time to restore what Ukraine gave up for peace with the orcs.
 
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Indus

Lifer
May 11, 2002
12,103
8,471
136
A shattered column of Ukrainian vehicles most likely in the east:

We need to directly intervene and end the orc threat once and for all.

Short of that, we need to send the valiant defenders of freedom in Ukraine every advanced weapon we can get our hands on, including ICBMs. Russia has shatterred the Budapest Memorandum, it is time to restore what Ukraine gave up for peace with the orcs.

Seems they got stuck in the mud. Mud is a big enemy of tanks. :(
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
34,067
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The gestapo flee from Svatove:

There have been some slow but steady developments of Ukraine advancing towards Svatove.
Russians realize it is too dangerous, as soon the frontline fighting may include the city itself.
 
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Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,286
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Here's one encapsulation of the thinking on denying Ukraine. Not exactly news, I know.

Despite my deep (and deeply emotional) desire to give the Ukranians, currently suffering and dying, military and civilian alike, everything they need to end their suffering and dying, I'm still not really sure where I come down on all this.


"One thing above all others has influenced the debate within the administration over what weapons system to give Ukraine: Russia’s restraint in keeping the war contained.

Russia has steadily increased the brutality and breadth of its attacks against Ukraine, killing civilians on the march to Kyiv, the capital, deporting children from occupied areas and now trying to break the will of the Ukrainians by attacking the electrical infrastructure to plunge the country into cold and darkness.

But Moscow so far has not let its war spill over into NATO territory. American officials continue to insist they have seen nothing that indicates Russia has decided to expand its attacks beyond Ukraine.

There have been no stepped-up cyberattacks by Russian intelligence agencies on NATO allies, and no evidence that Russia has conducted any sabotage attacks on allied countries.

Mr. Putin’s unwillingness to fight NATO directly has been key to the alliance’s ability to supply Ukraine with a steady flow of arms and ammunition, the very supplies that have kept Kyiv in the fight. Mr. Putin has shown he will accept high levels of international support for Ukraine, as long as those weapons are used in Ukraine. That, U.S. officials said, is the critical calculus: whether Mr. Putin will see a weapons system as something meant to attack Moscow, or something meant to be used inside Ukraine.

It is important, these U.S. officials say, not to give Mr. Putin an excuse to expand the war."
Yeah, there is a reason choose to rob old ladies and empty houses instead of a police station. Putin is not going to expand the war into a NATO country.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
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Short of that, we need to send the valiant defenders of freedom in Ukraine every advanced weapon we can get our hands on, including ICBMs. Russia has shatterred the Budapest Memorandum, it is time to restore what Ukraine gave up for peace with the orcs.

Nuclear ICBMs?
I cannot, and will NEVER, advocate for nuclear proliferation. Every weapon and every group that has a weapon, is just more certainty that humanity will end itself.

And a nation whose future existence is VERY much in question, whose morality may be shattered after suffering hundreds of thousands of atrocities, accumulating on a daily basis...
They will want vengeance. They will want blood. There is no reason to believe you are handing them over to a stable and peace loving government. Or even if you did... that said government would remain in power. There is bloody turmoil over there, Ukraine has been shattered and only exists on our aid. Aid that will be stopped in a year. Russia has thrown everything it has into destroying Ukraine, do not be so hasty into thinking it failed in this regard.

In upcoming years, as foreign aid declines, the damage will become evident. What remains will be seen. And Ukraine will need to pass certain tests to get into EU / NATO. But nuclear proliferation? There is no test that anyone can pass to satisfy my sense of safety. Humans are irrational actors, MAD presumes we are not. The thought that MAD provides long term security is based on a lie. Some day it will fail. If you want to live, if you want future generations to live, we must do everything in our power to minimize that risk.
 

GoPackGo

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 2003
6,461
527
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Nuclear ICBMs?
I cannot, and will NEVER, advocate for nuclear proliferation. Every weapon and every group that has a weapon, is just more certainty that humanity will end itself.

And a nation whose future existence is VERY much in question, whose morality may be shattered after suffering hundreds of thousands of atrocities, accumulating on a daily basis...
They will want vengeance. They will want blood. There is no reason to believe you are handing them over to a stable and peace loving government. Or even if you did... that said government would remain in power. There is bloody turmoil over there, Ukraine has been shattered and only exists on our aid. Aid that will be stopped in a year. Russia has thrown everything it has into destroying Ukraine, do not be so hasty into thinking it failed in this regard.

In upcoming years, as foreign aid declines, the damage will become evident. What remains will be seen. And Ukraine will need to pass certain tests to get into EU / NATO. But nuclear proliferation? There is no test that anyone can pass to satisfy my sense of safety. Humans are irrational actors, MAD presumes we are not. The thought that MAD provides long term security is based on a lie. Some day it will fail. If you want to live, if you want future generations to live, we must do everything in our power to minimize that risk.
Ukraine had nuclear missiles. They gave them up with the assurance Russia would never invade Ukraine. Ukraine should get them back. Would Putin have invaded Ukraine if they had nukes?

Also... if Russia were to attack a NATO country then the US and other allies would bring out the good stuff.
 
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Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
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It's got to get out of the HOR. McCarthy will be beholden to the Mat Gaetz, MTG, Beaubert wing of the remnants of the Republican party, that is, if he gets to be speaker. Actually, ether way, were F'd.
Yeah, forgot that he can just table the bill as McConnell has so often done.