Russia on brink of ... NOPE! Russia INVADES Ukraine!

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tweaker2

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
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Seems the Ukrainians would like to have many more SPAAGs.

The upgraded Gepards are probably very good at taking out loitering munitions and Iranian drones. KMW can spit out a few reconditioned units a month and there are plenty of them available in Europe to be had. Ammo is the limiting factor but if somebody pays NAMMO to expand their lines would be less of one, though Rheinmetall will start producing 35mm soon also. The Germans are also trying to sell Skyshield systems so they need a large reliable domestic supply of this ammunition and clearly that's not going to come from Switzerland.


The hull on that vehicle looks very similar to an American M60 tank.
 
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K1052

Lifer
Aug 21, 2003
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The hull on that vehicle looks very similar to an American M60 tank.
Yeah with an extra road wheel. Makes sense since the M60 and Leopard 1 were designed at basically the same time so there would be some design similarities.
 
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tweaker2

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
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Yeah with an extra road wheel. Makes sense since the M60 and Leopard 1 were designed at basically the same time so there would be some design similarities.
I'm more familiar with the M48 rocket magnet, having been around them during my tour in 'Nam. Great for portable arty, dragging stuff around and bunker busting, not much else as they were too vulnerable in the bush and paddies. It seems the Marines used them a lot more than we did.

The 105's from the fire bases though, now that and air cover were a blessing. Mana from the heavens. Saved our asses too many times to mention. The arty guys were never at a loss for beer and pupu's having untold number of cases of both sent over as thanks for getting a whole lot of friendlies out of some deep shit on a regular basis.
 

K1052

Lifer
Aug 21, 2003
42,453
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I'm more familiar with the M48 rocket magnet, having been around them during my tour in 'Nam. Great for portable arty, dragging stuff around and bunker busting, not much else as they were too vulnerable in the bush and paddies. It seems the Marines used them a lot more than we did.

The 105's from the fire bases though, now that and air cover were a blessing. Mana from the heavens. Saved our asses too many times to mention. The arty guys were never at a loss for beer and pupu's having untold number of cases of both sent over as thanks for getting a whole lot of friendlies out of some deep shit on a regular basis.
Kind of a trip to see Ukrainians operating old M101 howitzers that got donated via Lithuania. Seems like scenes from another era.
 

rommelrommel

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2002
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^^^ Like I asked way back early in the thread that nobody really addressed...... What happens AfterVlad? Hardliners are lining up to fill his shoes. Ideally they would be broken in a way that they cannot rebuild from.
For better or worse it’s got to be up to the Russians. NATO/EU/USA can’t have their finger on the scales outside of making things right in Ukraine.

Also disagree that we need a permanently broken Russia. First off, that’s not possible. Second off, that will breed resentment.
 
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Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
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For better or worse it’s got to be up to the Russians. NATO/EU/USA can’t have their finger on the scales outside of making things right in Ukraine.

Also disagree that we need a permanently broken Russia. First off, that’s not possible. Second off, that will breed resentment.
^^^ This. All of this.
 

Drach

Senior member
Apr 24, 2022
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For better or worse it’s got to be up to the Russians. NATO/EU/USA can’t have their finger on the scales outside of making things right in Ukraine.

Also disagree that we need a permanently broken Russia. First off, that’s not possible. Second off, that will breed resentment.
We don't desire a broken Russia for fucks sakes. We desire a Russia that doesn't kill its neighbors. Why is this so hard to understand?
My apologies. I'm super pissed off right now.
 
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cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
20,685
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For better or worse it’s got to be up to the Russians. NATO/EU/USA can’t have their finger on the scales outside of making things right in Ukraine.

Also disagree that we need a permanently broken Russia. First off, that’s not possible. Second off, that will breed resentment.
Sure. But. Counterpoint:


and


Thing is, with technology being what it is today, you may not have the torches and pitchforks option to overthrow the establishment anymore.
Soon you will have autonomous robots roaming the streets keeping the "peace".
Russians. Chinese. May not have the actual option to do anything about the regime.
 
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[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
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We don't desire a broken Russia for fucks sakes. We desire a Russia that doesn't kill its neighbors. Why is this so hard to understand?
Counter point, you cannot have a Russia that doesn't kill its neighbors. Russia will either continue to behave as it has, or it will be destroyed and reformed as something else, that may or may not exhibit the same tendencies.
 
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Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
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Counter point, you cannot have a Russia that doesn't kill its neighbors. Russia will either continue to behave as it has, or it will be destroyed and reformed as something else, that may or may not exhibit the same tendencies.
Which is why Ukraine should be admitted to NATO once the Russians are defeated.

They don't get a second try unless they want to face the full power of western arms.

Their army will be so depleted it will take an enormous investment to reconstitute, so GLWT
 
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rommelrommel

Diamond Member
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We don't desire a broken Russia for fucks sakes. We desire a Russia that doesn't kill its neighbors. Why is this so hard to understand?
My apologies. I'm super pissed off right now.
Why be upset at what I said into a reply to someone wishing for an eternally broken Russia?
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
23,658
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Yeah he nailed it.

ATACMS, F-16s too, really need to happen. I wonder how the upgraded tanks they've already been given have fared, don't think I've heard anything about them since the push late summer. I know the Russians still haven't been able to locate and destroy a single HIMARS launcher. And damn are they pissed/embarrassed over it. I think one of Solovyov's recent vodka soaked guests said Russia had "hacked" HIMARS, which is pretty funny for a force that can't even run it's own encrypted comms and relies on smartphones.

I want to know what Igor's plan is. Just going to stay in the hole until Putin dies? Please, someone geolocate this asshole.

strelkov.PNG



 

rommelrommel

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2002
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I don’t think they even need “modern” tanks. Sure, if Abrams and Leopard can make up shortfalls sure without being training/logistics sinks, but they aren’t being held back using T72’s.

F16/F15 I wonder how much they’d change the game because Buk and such can’t be ignored. I think ATACMS should have happened months ago, but I suspect it wouldn’t be as game changing as we think.

Training up real combined arms brigades+ is probably what’s going to be the biggest advantage. Russia can raise manpower but their ability to train to a high standard is questionable so long as you’re training conscripts and equipping them for shit.

Ukraine will continue to shape the battlefield and exploit Russian weaknesses. This war is lost so long as the west simply maintains their current level of support.
 

RnR_au

Senior member
Jun 6, 2021
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I want to know what Igor's plan is. Just going to stay in the hole until Putin dies? Please, someone geolocate this asshole.
He looks pretty clean and dry there. Not a hint of mud. Unlikely at the front lines.
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
23,658
25,560
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I don’t think they even need “modern” tanks. Sure, if Abrams and Leopard can make up shortfalls sure without being training/logistics sinks, but they aren’t being held back using T72’s.

F16/F15 I wonder how much they’d change the game because Buk and such can’t be ignored. I think ATACMS should have happened months ago, but I suspect it wouldn’t be as game changing as we think.

Training up real combined arms brigades+ is probably what’s going to be the biggest advantage. Russia can raise manpower but their ability to train to a high standard is questionable so long as you’re training conscripts and equipping them for shit.

Ukraine will continue to shape the battlefield and exploit Russian weaknesses. This war is lost so long as the west simply maintains their current level of support.

AGM-88 HARM can't be ignored either. Buk M3 is a problem for sure, but it's no NASAMS, still a semi active seeker. I expect any Vipers we give Ukraine will be staying low, fast, and packing modern countermeasures and jamming that work. And let's face it, if it comes down to evasion being what can save your ass, better hope it's sitting in a Viper. Pilot training times though, ugh. 3 months is the bare minimum, but Congress set aside money for it back in July (?) so maybe that might yield something yet? I would expect some F-16s, would be surprised if we gave them F-15s. Strikes me as more bird than needed, would mean more support hours and fuel used for sure.

ATACMS, idk, that kind of range difference opens up a lot of targeting opportunities. East Kherson now has plenty of dug in spots that artillery can't reach. Training and combined arms tactics though, the West is doing a great job here and I hope it only increases.
 

K1052

Lifer
Aug 21, 2003
42,453
24,522
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I don’t think they even need “modern” tanks. Sure, if Abrams and Leopard can make up shortfalls sure without being training/logistics sinks, but they aren’t being held back using T72’s.
Probably until the last few months it made sense to supply ex-Soviet equipment. I think it probably makes less sense now but the Germans seem very touchy about the optics of their tanks blowing up Russian stuff. Ukrainians have learned how to operate and maintain the Gepards just fine and those are built on a Leopard 1 chassis. I think the problem now is that Ukraine is heavily using its tanks for (drone corrected) indirect fire missions and they've been burning up 125mm ammunition stocks. Accessing western tanks with ample supplies of 105 or 120mm rounds likely the priority.

The US should consider supplying Ukraine with the entire M1128 MGS fleet which would help solve this problem without giving Ukraine "tanks". They're all supposed to be retired at the end of this year and there is no export market for them.
 

K1052

Lifer
Aug 21, 2003
42,453
24,522
136
ATACMS, idk, that kind of range difference opens up a lot of targeting opportunities. East Kherson now has plenty of dug in spots that artillery can't reach. Training and combined arms tactics though, the West is doing a great job here and I hope it only increases.
Yeah Russians moved their main command posts and depots out of GMLRS range but they are easily findable on sat imagery. Russian airbases in Crimea would also no longer be usable. The whole southern front would likely collapse.
 

rommelrommel

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2002
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Don’t get me wrong, I’d love to send them a few hundred ATACMS a month. I do think the Russians would largely adjust tho. Right now they can afford to be fairly lazy since Ukraine can’t conduct many strikes past GMRLS range. Inside of that they have largely learned to disperse command posts, ammo/fuel dumps, etc.

But even then, it could sure speed things up.
 

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