Russia on brink of ... NOPE! Russia INVADES Ukraine!

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you2

Diamond Member
Apr 2, 2002
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This deserves a good discussion; though I suppose this is not the right thread. My view is one of data not politics and all I have say is that there are an awful lot of deaths in USA via guns that don't exist in other countries. There are countries with a lot of guns but without the murders though they have restrictions or procedures that are a bit more rigid before one can obtain a gun; but at the end of the day those who really want a gun can get one.

My view is lets analyze the data and then find a solution that works because there are way too many killings right now. Having said that unfortunately politics will get in the way... because after all at least for some folks it isn't about solving the problem of mass killings it is about getting the vote.

And then he went on as to how the Dems want to take away all our guns.
 
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kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
23,635
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Folks can wear themselves out engage Ralfy and YoungP; it will do no good. Like Trumpanzees, they live in an alternate universe. You can show them the laughable deficiencies in their arguments but it will have no effect.

On Thanksgiving, I ran up against the husband of my good friend's sister. Towards the end of the meal, he started out fine, saying he thought Trump was a dangerous demagogue and that his buddies in his gun club were idiots for liking him because "he tells it like it is." Sadly, he didn't stop there. He said the problem was secondary education, which, he said, "begins and ends with MLK." At that point I just dropped eye contact. And then he went on as to how the Dems want to take away all our guns.

I simply didn't engage. I was proud of myself. I did feel sorry for my friend and her sister, who are not crazy.

But the turkey and fixings were fine. Life goes on. We just have to keep outvoting these people.
When it comes to changing their minds, I tend to agree, although I also believe there is some utility in demonstrating how full of shit they are to others, my intended audience for the most part. People tend not to emulate the afflicted when they can see the condition. Remember how many right wing nutjob trolls this place used to have? I'd wager many of them left due to others exposing those trolls as the clownish, dishonest losers they are. Other trolls got themselves banned for not being able to deal with it. I've noticed if you shut them down and embarrass them enough, sometimes they leave for months, maybe years. Or for good. I like that effect personally, big fan.

I think it's commendable you did that, you put the occasion over slapping down some bullshit and hate. I don't really have any crazies in the family anymore, the few that were down with Team Treason jumped ship years ago. The one who didn't keeps himself scarce.

If you want to mix it up next year, impress that guy with some 'telling it like it is' of your own, heh, here's your shirt.

 
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Young Grasshopper

Senior member
Nov 9, 2007
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Bruh


"In the 1990s, as NATO reevaluated its purpose in a world without a powerful Soviet Union — which the alliance was designed to counterbalance — NATO formed a more organized process for prospective countries: the Membership Action Plan. The program aimed to help aspiring nations who were interested in joining solidify their application through goals and recommendations from NATO’s leadership, many of which involve democratic, economic and other ideals. "

I'll give you a hint, Ukraine worked its ass off to meet these anti corruption and democratic ideals and was largely successful, so successful that NATO members, EU members, at this point would be hard pressed to find a reason to not accept the country. So on the verge of joining the west, for all its struggles, Russia intervenes, goes to war, cause in a another year it may not be a possibility anymore.
There is a difference between what NATO says and what is reality. Did Ukraine not seek NATO membership over the past few years? Do I need to post the video again where Zelensky told CNN NATO told him Ukraine would never be a NATO member? Stop falling for western propaganda.


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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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There is a difference between what NATO says and what is reality. Did Ukraine not seek NATO membership over the past few years? Do I need to post the video again where Zelensky told CNN NATO told him Ukraine would never be a NATO member? Stop falling for western propaganda.


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You do realize you’re a propaganda victim, right?

Russia lies about everything. Literally everything. They count on you to amplify their lies because they think you are stupid. Do you think they are right?
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
23,635
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Ukrainian PzH 2000 non-critically damaged. Probably sent to Lithuania for repairs.

NATO has set up repair yards in Poland for western gear. Given the physical size of Ukraine they want to move these closer to the front so equipment doesn't spend so much time in transport. Russian spec equipment that needs heavy work gets sent to Czechia AFAIK.

Bound to happen sooner or later I guess. Kind of surprised they've gone this long without losing several, what with the drones. I know one of their Caesers got damaged this past summer, probably already back killing orcs though.

I still can't believe they put a bunch on barges and towed them out to sea (10km!) so they could shell boats and Snake Island. Serious balls there.
 
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Young Grasshopper

Senior member
Nov 9, 2007
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You do realize you’re a propaganda victim, right?

Russia lies about everything. Literally everything. They count on you to amplify their lies because they think you are stupid. Do you think they are right?
Actually I have known about this conflict for the past 8 years, where as everyone else is just caught up in the current events and whatever they hear on the news. I know the history, the vast majority of people don’t.

I’ll do you a favor. Here is a lecture by John Mearsheimer on this conflict. He gave this lecture back in 2016, way before this invasion started and warned Russia would one day invade Ukraine due to NATOs policies.



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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
78,679
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Actually I have known about this conflict for the past 8 years, where as everyone else is just caught up in the current events and whatever they hear on the news. I know the history, the vast majority of people don’t.

I’ll do you a favor. Here is a lecture by John Mearsheimer on this conflict. He gave this lecture back in 2016, way before this invasion started and warned Russia would one day invade Ukraine due to NATOs policies.



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We already covered this.


How do you explain this?
 
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K1052

Lifer
Aug 21, 2003
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Bound to happen sooner or later I guess. Kind of surprised they've gone this long without losing several, what with the drones. I know one of their Caesers got damaged this past summer, probably already back killing orcs though.

I still can't believe they put a bunch on barges and towed them out to sea (10km!) so they could shell boats and Snake Island. Serious balls there.
I think that detail in the NYT story is probably wrong. There are pics and video of the Ukrainians using their 2S22 Bohdana from shore to work over Snake Island. They might have barged it into the Danube delta only about 35km from the island, well within range of base bleed and RAP projectiles for a 52 caliber gun.
 
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rommelrommel

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2002
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Actually I have known about this conflict for the past 8 years, where as everyone else is just caught up in the current events and whatever they hear on the news. I know the history, the vast majority of people don’t.

I’ll do you a favor. Here is a lecture by John Mearsheimer on this conflict. He gave this lecture back in 2016, way before this invasion started and warned Russia would one day invade Ukraine due to NATOs policies.



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Laughable.

I was disappointed by Obama’s lack of action regarding Crimea. Your only awareness was probably your glee at your strongman role model stealing what he wanted. I imagine you still are unsure about who shot down a plane full of civilians.

Let’s accept that Putin was provoked because of western support for Ukraine. I think that much is fair as it’s contrary to his interests of an illiberal and undemocratic world.

How do you get from Putin wanting a neo-fascist world to him being right to invade Ukraine?

The only way I can get there is if you have much the same desires as Putin. No democracy. Not many freedoms. Authoritarian strongmen controlling everything of value.

Are the faults of the west that bad? Are we so irredeemably broken that we to need to give up on the vision of a free and democratic society? Is a “benevolent” fascism better?
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
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There is a difference between what NATO says and what is reality. Did Ukraine not seek NATO membership over the past few years? Do I need to post the video again where Zelensky told CNN NATO told him Ukraine would never be a NATO member? Stop falling for western propaganda.


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Lol its not western propaganda dude. If you want to be part of NATO you gotta walk and talk like the duck. It is what it is, and Ukraine did not, deeply corrupt and subject to influence from a lot of not-democratic-aligned entities.
Also you talk about NATO as some sovereign entity. Its not. If we the people wants Ukraine in the flock, our politicians WILL get in fucking line and say "yes sir" "thank you sir" "will do sir".
Thats the beauty of actually free democracies. We will do as we say.
To boot, with the onslaught of the internet and modern media we can empathically reach outside our own borders. We can and will unite. And fuck those who seeks to divide us for personal profit and power.
 
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Young Grasshopper

Senior member
Nov 9, 2007
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Lol its not western propaganda dude. If you want to be part of NATO you gotta walk and talk like the duck. It is what it is, and Ukraine did not, deeply corrupt and subject to influence from a lot of not-democratic-aligned entities.
Also you talk about NATO as some sovereign entity. Its not. If we the people wants Ukraine in the flock, our politicians WILL get in fucking line and say "yes sir" "thank you sir" "will do sir".
Thats the beauty of actually free democracies. We will do as we say.
To boot, with the onslaught of the internet and modern media we can empathically reach outside our own borders. We can and will unite. And fuck those who seeks to divide us for personal profit and power.
You must live in a world where politicians actually do what they say they will do, instead of just saying whatever will get them elected. Must be nice.

Well if the people want Ukraine in NATO, feel free to start your own revolution to make that happen because these same politicians you glowingly talk about have been rejecting Ukraine for years.

Maybe when you get older, you’ll understand politicians most of the time do the opposite of what people want, and instead do whatever their donors tell them to do.


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kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
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I think that detail in the NYT story is probably wrong. There are pics and video of the Ukrainians using their 2S22 Bohdana from shore to work over Snake Island. They might have barged it into the Danube delta only about 35km from the island, well within range of base bleed and RAP projectiles for a 52 caliber gun.
Definitely possible, they're so valuable and there's no scooting on a barge, smacks of a last ditch tactic to me which is hard to reconcile with Ukrainian progress. Still, NYT is reputable, would be nice to see come clarification. I don't see how simple relocation would "surprise" the French honestly. 35km from closest point, yes, but I believe it was more like 50km from where they had the guns. Marshland and coastal flooding areas wouldn't be a nice place for wheeled vehicles of that weight I'm pretty sure.
 
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Young Grasshopper

Senior member
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Laughable.

I was disappointed by Obama’s lack of action regarding Crimea. Your only awareness was probably your glee at your strongman role model stealing what he wanted. I imagine you still are unsure about who shot down a plane full of civilians.

Let’s accept that Putin was provoked because of western support for Ukraine. I think that much is fair as it’s contrary to his interests of an illiberal and undemocratic world.

How do you get from Putin wanting a neo-fascist world to him being right to invade Ukraine?

The only way I can get there is if you have much the same desires as Putin. No democracy. Not many freedoms. Authoritarian strongmen controlling everything of value.

Are the faults of the west that bad? Are we so irredeemably broken that we to need to give up on the vision of a free and democratic society? Is a “benevolent” fascism better?
Democracy huh? You mean the same kind of democracy where a democratically elected president was overthrown due to a NATO backed coup in Ukraine back in 2014? The same kind of democracy where a U.S. diplomat is caught in a leaked phone call picking out who the next president of Ukraine would be? That kind of democracy?

And yeah Russia invaded Ukraine. I guess Putin saw the list of countries we have invaded(Iraq/Syria/Libya/Afghanistan/Yemen/Somalia/countless others…and probably figured he had the green light.


BTW there was a poll conducted back in 2013 where a world opinion poll was conducted asking which country they saw was the biggest threat to world peace. Can you guess which country was #1? It wasn’t Russia BTW. I’ll post a link here so you can look at the results.



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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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Democracy huh? You mean the same kind of democracy where a democratically elected president was overthrown due to a NATO backed coup in Ukraine back in 2014? The same kind of democracy where a U.S. diplomat is caught in a leaked phone call picking out who the next president of Ukraine would be? That kind of democracy?

And yeah Russia invaded Ukraine. I guess Putin saw the list of countries we have invaded(Iraq/Syria/Libya/Afghanistan/Yemen/Somalia/countless others…and probably figured he had the green light.


BTW there was a poll conducted back in 2013 where a world opinion poll was conducted asking which country they saw was the biggest threat to world peace. Can you guess which country was #1? It wasn’t Russia BTW. I’ll post a link here so you can look at the results.



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lol. Now Russia thought it was ok to invade Ukraine because the US did bad things elsewhere.

Also in case anyone wants to buy the tankie’s narrative here he’s also making up the idea that the US was somehow picking Ukraine’s next president. This is also a lie.

Tankies gonna tankie I guess.
 

rommelrommel

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2002
4,019
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Democracy huh? You mean the same kind of democracy where a democratically elected president was overthrown due to a NATO backed coup in Ukraine back in 2014? The same kind of democracy where a U.S. diplomat is caught in a leaked phone call picking out who the next president of Ukraine would be? That kind of democracy?

And yeah Russia invaded Ukraine. I guess Putin saw the list of countries we have invaded(Iraq/Syria/Libya/Afghanistan/Yemen/Somalia/countless others…and probably figured he had the green light.


BTW there was a poll conducted back in 2013 where a world opinion poll was conducted asking which country they saw was the biggest threat to world peace. Can you guess which country was #1? It wasn’t Russia BTW. I’ll post a link here so you can look at the results.



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2014 wasn’t a coup lol. Nor did a diplomat decide who the leader of Ukraine would be.

Nor is a bunch of poorly constructed whataboutism convincing. The US does bad stuff, yeah. What parts of those countries did the US annex anyways? My memory is a bit spotty I guess.

But as usual, you beg the question.

Why you prefer the Russian style of autocracy, authoritarianism and sham elections to western democracies?
 
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cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
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You must live in a world where politicians actually do what they say they will do, instead of just saying whatever will get them elected. Must be nice.

Well if the people want Ukraine in NATO, feel free to start your own revolution to make that happen because these same politicians you glowingly talk about have been rejecting Ukraine for years.

Maybe when you get older, you’ll understand politicians most of the time do the opposite of what people want, and instead do whatever their donors tell them to do.


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They do. Most of the time, no system is perfect cause its made by man and man is fallible, but by and large, yea, otherwise its gtfo election day. You can actually force an election outside of term here, all that needs to happen is that one or two of the supporting parties revoke their trust -> and election it is.
So there is a short turnaround from a politician fucking up and facing consequences from the votes. The US is bigger, I get that. Larger machinery longer turnaround. It is what it is.
Seriously though. Citizens United. First stop, Citizens United.
 
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