Rumsfeld Says Iran May Have Nuclear Weapons Soon

konichiwa

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
15,077
2
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Here we go again! The whirlwind of rhetoric is reaching a fever pitch!

Rumsfeld Says Iran May Have Nuclear Weapons Soon
Reuters -- 6:44 AM ET June 11, 2003


GARMISCH-PARTENKIRCHEN, Germany (Reuters) - Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said on Wednesday Iran was fast approaching a point where it may have nuclear weapons, although it did not appear to have any at present.

"The intelligence community in the United States and around the world currently assess that Iran does not have nuclear weapons," he told a meeting with students in the southern German town of Garmisch-Partenkirchen.

"The assessment is that they do have a very active program and are likely to have nuclear weapons in a relatively short period of time."

Iran has denied developing nuclear weapons but has been accused by Washington of violating the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty by using undeclared nuclear material to test a uranium enrichment system.

The International Atomic Energy Agency has also accused Tehran of failing to declare it had imported uranium in 1991 or to show where and how it was processed.

Rumsfeld, on a brief visit to Germany to attend an anniversary ceremony at a U.S.-German security policy center, also said the United States would not tolerate attempts by Iran to promote a religious government in neighboring Iraq.

"The efforts by Iran to try to make Iraq become a model of Iran with a small group of clerics taking over the country and controlling it, we're not going to let happen," he said.

"We're going to actively oppose any Iranian influence in that country that attempts to make Iraq an Iran-type model and we'll do it with words to start with and we'll do it energetically," he said.

Rumsfeld also urged more international cooperation to counter "rogue states" that allegedly have weapons of mass destruction, singling out North Korea.

"Take proliferation. It is not a problem that individual nations can handle by themselves," Rumsfeld said in prepared remarks from a speech he was due to give later.

"We know that North Korea is the world's foremost proliferator of ballistic missile technology. Now they have stated that they may not only build but also sell nuclear weapons and materials," he said.

The remarks were the latest in a long series of U.S. verbal attacks on North Korea, which said earlier this week it wanted to build up its nuclear weapons capability to cut its conventional forces and divert funds to prop up its economy.
 

BOBDN

Banned
May 21, 2002
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Originally posted by: lozina
We should liberate the people of Iran

Oh, boy. Here they go again.

I wonder where their intelligence is coming from this time? More 12 year old info form a thesis?

Heh, that's as old as the Cardhu single malt I have downstairs.
 

tnitsuj

Diamond Member
May 22, 2003
5,446
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Originally posted by: BOBDN
Originally posted by: lozina
We should liberate the people of Iran

Oh, boy. Here they go again.

I wonder where their intelligence is coming from this time? More 12 year old info form a thesis?

Heh, that's as old as the Cardhu single malt I have downstairs.

Iran actually might be close to developing a nuclear capability. Independant info from Sattelite photos and the IAEA tend to confirm that.

You can bet after the invasion of Iraq they are redoubling thier efforts to achieve a nuclear deterrant,
 

BOBDN

Banned
May 21, 2002
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Originally posted by: tnitsuj
Originally posted by: BOBDN
Originally posted by: lozina
We should liberate the people of Iran

Oh, boy. Here they go again.

I wonder where their intelligence is coming from this time? More 12 year old info form a thesis?

Heh, that's as old as the Cardhu single malt I have downstairs.

Iran actually might be close to developing a nuclear capability. Independant info from Sattelite photos and the IAEA tend to confirm that.

You can bet after the invasion of Iraq they are redoubling thier efforts to achieve a nuclear deterrant,

Agreed. They've also seen it work for the third leg in the stool of "THE AXIS OF EVIL!", North Korea.

I'm going to need to stock up on that scotch I think.

 

lozina

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
11,711
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Exactly why I wouldn't blame em for developing nukes, It's a tried-and-true method for deterring invasion from the Good 'ol United States
 

KAMAZON

Golden Member
Apr 4, 2001
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Originally posted by: lozina
We should liberate the people of Iran

IF you weren't kidding, do you mean "Liberate" the people of Iran like we did to Afghanistan and Iraq? No thank you, please keep your perverted ideas of 'democracy' through anarchy, distruction, looting, and pestilince to yourself and grow fat drinking your soda while watching TV or glued to a virtual comptuer screen all day. It will all be OK, I pwomise. No Usama boogie man is going to come eat you.


Rumsfeld, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Perle, Shulsky, and all these 'Straussian Chickenhawks' LIED to you to get a IMPERIAL WAR OF AGGRESSION, which is against the Nuremburg Laws, Geneva Conventions, US Constitution, and therefore, makes Cheney Impeachable. Regime change in Washington DC! Impeach the Liars!


Anandtech Forum: LaRouche Says Charges Against Cheney Constitute Grounds For Impeachment


You were LIED to. Get used to it, if you don't face it now, you will continue to accept to be lied to.
 

lozina

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
11,711
8
81
Originally posted by: KAMAZON
Originally posted by: lozina
We should liberate the people of Iran

IF you weren't kidding, do you mean "Liberate" the people of Iran like we did to Afghanistan and Iraq? No thank you, please keep your perverted ideas of 'democracy' through anarchy, distruction, looting, and pestilince to yourself and grow fat drinking your soda while watching TV or glued to a virtual comptuer screen all day. It will all be OK, I pwomise. No Usama boogie man is going to come eat you.


Rumsfeld, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Perle, Shulsky, and all these 'Straussian Chickenhawks' LIED to you to get a IMPERIAL WAR OF AGGRESSION, which is against the Nuremburg Laws, Geneva Conventions, US Constitution, and therefore, makes Cheney Impeachable. Regime change in Washington DC! Impeach the Liars!


Anandtech Forum: LaRouche Says Charges Against Cheney Constitute Grounds For Impeachment


You were LIED to. Get used to it, if you don't face it now, you will continue to accept to be lied to.

Yes I was being sarcastic, and I may agree that those members of the Bush administration should be jailed for their fraudulent crusade- but you aren't going to get anywhere campaigning like a loony. Get a grip on yourself, man.
 

KAMAZON

Golden Member
Apr 4, 2001
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I mistook you for a fundy, so I wanted to mess with your head maybe get you to think. Everything I have said was fully accurate. This is a fascist imperial war of aggression, and no one can refute it isn't anymore.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,937
6,794
126
Well I guess you learn by doing. It's going to be a whole lot easier to prove attacking Iran is justified because they don't have nukes than proving it justified because they do. Rumball's getting smarter.
 

Zrom999

Banned
Apr 13, 2003
698
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Originally posted by: lozina
We should liberate the people of Iran

Any foreign army trying to "liberate" Iran will be up to their necks in blood... their own blood. The US won't invade any country that really has WMD anyway. They made sure it was all clear in Iraq first then attacked.
 

JellyBaby

Diamond Member
Apr 21, 2000
9,159
1
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Originally posted by: Vic
Fool me once...
Also consider the boy who cried "wolf".

If the Iraq war was conducted on false pretenses then it severely damages the credibility of US intel services, congress and the executive and especially our King. Now the next threat comes along but this time it's real. We fail to heed the warning signs because we don't trust the source any more. Talk about getting into a salty pickle eh?

I'm not saying Iraq is a dire threat to US security but I am saying let's be damn sure this time and lets get Congress thinking "war declaration" so we can have an adult debate and proper authorization of any action.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Well I guess you learn by doing. It's going to be a whole lot easier to prove attacking Iran is justified because they don't have nukes than proving it justified because they do. Rumball's getting smarter.



:moon::beer::)
 

BarneyFife

Diamond Member
Aug 12, 2001
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Originally posted by: lozina
Exactly why I wouldn't blame em for developing nukes, It's a tried-and-true method for deterring invasion from the Good 'ol United States


Exactly. The US loves to attack countries with non-exisistent armies.
 

Athanasius

Senior member
Nov 16, 1999
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From another thread:

... I think unelected individuals who are brilliant (but sometimes Machiavellian) spend their lives trying to envision what is truly threatening free markets, representative republics, and their own particular vision of what is best for the world came to the conclusion that the combination of radical Islamic fundamentalism and a dictator who views himself as a reincarnation of Nebuchadnezzar was a combination that could not be allowed to continue. Hence the goal of regime change. Therefore they are seeking every palatable/lawful means for accomplishing that. In short, they are trying to enforce a "Pax Americana." Have you read the three U.N. Resolutions that are of merit (1441, and the 8-somethings before them?). Simply by those three resolutions, the first Persian Gulf War never really ended. Saddam never complied as he should have, and that compliance was the means by which he was supposed to be allowed to stay in power. So why was he still in power? The fact of non-compliance was enough legal ground to give those who believe in a "Pax Americana" the ammunition they needed to drive him out by force.

I am not villifiying such people. Though Machiavellian, I think they really believe that a "Pax Americana" is the path that leads to the greatest level of international peace and stability. I think much of what you see from France, Russia, and Germany (strange bedfellows indeed) is a tactical move to resist this Pax Americana. Weeks ago there was this thread, "France Has the Moral High Ground." I do not think "Moral High Ground" has much of anything to do with this. "Moral High Ground" is simply the way some people manipulate the masses to rally them behind their cause.

This is my opinion about what is really going on. It is all very troubling to someone such as myself, who really thinks that the "Moral High Ground" is the not merely a tool for manipulating people but is something that has a life of its own. It does not exist for us. We exist for it.

There are competing visions, or "memes," for the future of this world. Memes are powerful things.

I don't think humans are able to handle power well. In fact, I don't think any society has handled it well for long. Now the USA's is in the batter's box. I hope we do better than those who have gone before us. There is little precedent to guide us. We did seem to manage the Cold War pretty well, but there were huge atrocities along the way. The political handling of Vietnam and the excessed of McCarthyism come to mind.

But what is the political alternative? If it had been left to the UN, Saddam's atrocities would have never been stopped. The UN is a powerless veneer masking a multinational battle for eminence. The Franco-German-Russian trinity would have kept Saddam in power no matter what he did. Then we would have his even more lunatic sons after him. The Anglo-American "Pax Americana" was convinced he needed to go. And let's not even try to figure the Chinese connection to this.

There is no political solution, because there is no one with enough integrity, wisdom, and power to negotiate the mess without being corrupted, deceived, are despotic.

Over time:
Our integrity gets corrupted
Our wisdom is insufficent and we end up deceived.
Our power is either impotent or becomes malignant and despotic.

Meanwhile we are stuck in a mess that we cannot wash our hands of. We are all Lady MacBeths. We need Plato's "Philosopher King."

We need the "Divine Sage" that Confucius spoke of. In the Analects, one of Confucius' students came to him and said: "If a ruler compassed the salvation of the entire state, surely you would call him Good? The Master said, "It would no longer be a matter of "Good." Without doubt he would be a Divine Sage."

Of course I believe we had that Divine Sage. But he shut him up as demon-possessed and insane and crucified him. You ask what Jesus would do? that gets into beliefs about Jesus. I believe that Jesus will by his time and work on redeeming individuals because I believe that individuals are eternal. Systems and politics are not. When the systems are trulyt beyong functioning, I believe he will return. meanwhile we do the best we can, we look to our heavenly country, and we act as Daniels in Babylon. We give the best advice we can, we sincerely seek the good of the leaders we have, we pray for them, and we recognize how vulnerable they are.




This is not about "Truth," or "Moral High Ground." It is about survival and maintaining by force what seems to some people to be a better way of life. The U.S. used to be isolationist. What it found itself involved in was two World Wars and a long and dark Cold War. Now it is taking a different approach: international Pax Americana. Only the stakes are far higher now. We thought the Cold War was bad but this is worse. However different our economic and belief systems, the USSR and the USA had basically western psyches. The threat of mutual annihilation caused the "game" to be played with certain "rules" that both sides felt were "innate."

That is not the case now. There are no "rules." There is little "innate" common ground that keeps the political situation somewhat sane. There is only a kind of inbred residual of American Isolationism that might be resuscitated enough to go through proper channels. But Congress hasn't declared war in 60+ years. Somehow we have managed to avoid that little detail as we have slogged through Korea, Vietnam, Gulf I, Gulf II and a handful of other "police actions" that I guess weren't big enough to warrant Congress' attention.

Congress is paralyzed because it is the one branch of government that was supposed to be run by true citizens who would serve for a couple of terms and then go back home. That gave them the freedom to vote their conscience and accept the results. Now Congress is infested with career politicians who won't risk losing their position of power. But their addiction to power leaves them powerless to alter the course of events.

Did you know that Abraham Lincoln lost his seat in the House because he opposed the US War with Mexico? He viewed it as an unconstitutional land grab. He spoke out because his conscience left him no choice and because he had the integrity to walk away from power.

The legislature is supposed to be the voice of the people and the voice of law. It is neither. Congress is inept and so our checks and balances are corrupted.

Meanwhile, we have a very messy situation and large people groups that hate the west far more than the Soviet Union ever did. There is always a Way, but where are people of the Way to make it happen here on Earth?

We won't even sacrifice our computer games yet we blast our leaders for their lack of integrity. The stream cannot rise higher than its source. But have a cookie. In a few minutes, you'll feel better.
 

shiner

Lifer
Jul 18, 2000
17,112
1
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Originally posted by: BarneyFife
Originally posted by: lozina
Exactly why I wouldn't blame em for developing nukes, It's a tried-and-true method for deterring invasion from the Good 'ol United States


Exactly. The US loves to attack countries with non-exisistent armies.
If that were true Canada would be in real trouble.

 

KAMAZON

Golden Member
Apr 4, 2001
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Originally posted by: shinerburke
Originally posted by: BarneyFife
Originally posted by: lozina
Exactly why I wouldn't blame em for developing nukes, It's a tried-and-true method for deterring invasion from the Good 'ol United States


Exactly. The US loves to attack countries with non-exisistent armies.
If that were true Canada would be in real trouble.

Canada is already a colony of the British, they have nothing to worry about.
 

JellyBaby

Diamond Member
Apr 21, 2000
9,159
1
81
Athanasius, very insightful.
But have a cookie. In a few minutes, you'll feel better.
Everything seems cyclical. America is slowly but surely cycling into exactly what our forefathers fled from not too long ago. Only this time where do we flee when the cookie supply runs out?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,937
6,794
126
What are memes, Athanasius, identical to competing visions or something more? I don't know this word.

I read what you said several times but am not sure what is your point. My notion is that humans are cursed to operate at the level we find them and that we should pray, but that the answer is in some other Way of small membership. I'm not sure whether yours was a critique of what is or some sort of condemnation or some accommodation that's a product of inevitability, or something else. There is so much I agree with and yet much that I wonder about too. This business of Lincoln walking away from power is a compelling concept. Are you suggesting that he could do so out of faith in God? I don't know much about him but that he may have had profound character from an early age. Were we differ, I guess, is what we tend to name as its source. If the reports are true, Jesus walked away too. He could have made toast of his opposition. Why have we?
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
What are memes, Athanasius, identical to competing visions or something more? I don't know this word.

I read what you said several times but am not sure what is your point. My notion is that humans are cursed to operate at the level we find them and that we should pray, but that the answer is in some other Way of small membership. I'm not sure whether yours was a critique of what is or some sort of condemnation or some accommodation that's a product of inevitability, or something else. There is so much I agree with and yet much that I wonder about too. This business of Lincoln walking away from power is a compelling concept. Are you suggesting that he could do so out of faith in God? I don't know much about him but that he may have had profound character from an early age. Were we differ, I guess, is what we tend to name as its source. If the reports are true, Jesus walked away too. He could have made toast of his opposition. Why have we?

I read "memes" to be a subjective bad sort of attitude or persuasive force that seeks to degrade and devour for its own agenda versus a common good.

We make toast to the extent we are un Jesus like. It seems to me.

 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,937
6,794
126
Are memes paradigms?

I guess I could try to look it up.

Memes.com: "Memes are Mind Viruses. One needs to be aware of the power, incestuous, and insidious nature of ideas, icons, concepts, and theory. There is a reason why, in mediaspeak, the format of broadcasting is called programming. We are entirely susceptible to the influence of others. We are community-dwellers and as such, we have a natural tendency to be part of a hive."

Hehe, I get laughed off the block every time I mention this. Humanity is insane. Only the mind that knows it does not know can escape this particular net.