Rumour: Bulldozer 50% Faster than Core i7 and Phenom II.

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hamunaptra

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May 24, 2005
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No, they doubled the threads they can run with pretty much the same hardware, which improves efficiency (of hardware resources and therefore manufacturing costs). So haw is that poor design?


Increasing the pipeline depth will decrease IPC while allowing for itcreases in clock speed. For IPC to increase at the same time as the pipeline there would have to be major architectural improvements. So from that, AMD is trying to do a repeat of Pentium 4/Netburst!!!???

To clarify, while they have increased pipeline stages, they have dramatically changed nearly everything on the front of the cores compared to stars architecture. Many things are unified now / much simpler, yet way more efficient and able to do much more. This will hopefully make up for the increased stage count in the pipes.

I believe there design has allowed more stages, yet increased IPC through heavily optimizing other areas of the pipelines, while allowing substantially higher clocks.

So, its not just a matter of adding more stages to a current stars architecture, of course that would kill the IPC...and I think thats what you think Im referring too =P
 

Kuzi

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Sep 16, 2007
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1090T @ 4.0ghz easily got 7.0 in Cinebench R11.5.
980X @ 3.33ghz = 8.95
2600k @ 3.4ghz = 6.88 (Bit-tech)
i7-950 @ 3.06ghz = 5.57 (Bit-tech)

If we assume perfect "core" scaling from 6 core Stars Phenom II to 4 core/8 modules BD, that's 33.3% increase. I am going to be conservative and say it will only be a 20% increase. Let's assume BD will net at least a 10% increase in IPC over Stars (again on the conservative end).

On 45nm, 1100T is already at 3.3ghz with 3.7ghz Turbo. This means getting a 3.8-4.0ghz BD at launch is not out of the question on 32nm.

3.8ghz BD x 20% increase in cores x 10% increase in IPC = 5.0ghz Phenom II X6.

This would get us closer to 8.8 on Cinebench R11.5 with a stock BD.

Here is your 50% increase over i7-950 without breaking a sweat in a multi-threaded app and performance right near 980X.

And these are very conservative estimates on my part.

That's a reasonable way to look at it, and it shows that in highly multi-threaded apps Bulldozer will shine. But for the average user most of the software currently in use runs on 1 to 4 cores, where IPC advantages of SB will keep it ahead. Unless BD is clocked noticeably higher (+4GHz).
 

Riek

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Dec 16, 2008
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That's a reasonable way to look at it, and it shows that in highly multi-threaded apps Bulldozer will shine. But for the average user most of the software currently in use runs on 1 to 4 cores, where IPC advantages of SB will keep it ahead. Unless BD is clocked noticeably higher (+4GHz).

just a question, what ipc advantages? we don't know anything about BD.

If you correlate from the performance figures of some slide and you assume the performance is from highly multithreaded applications and you try to correlate that to single thread performance you will also have to remove the HT factor which can also lead up to 30% in some multitasked programs which also needs to be corrected.
 

JFAMD

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May 16, 2009
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even if it is that fast, which i doubt, theyre going to have to come up with some new applications to justify why a typical user should go out and buy computers this fast.

I was not aware that there is no software that needs to be run faster. I should let intel know.

They did not name it core and thread as Intel because of the design difference. A 8 core / 4 module Bulldozer and a 8 thread / 4 core Sandybridge show both 8 cores to operating system / task manager. The difference is that half of the shown number is just virtual with Intel but real with AMD. To point out that they are real they made this core/module renaming.

You could also just rename module with core then you get: "4 current Intel cores match 3 AMD Bulldozer cores".

Don't get confused with the naming differences.

We will not market modules. A zambezi will have 8 cores and handles 8 threads.
 

Hulk

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Just a thought I had that noone has really brought up yet.
Is there any chance that intels new SB prices are so good on the processors, is because intel knows of BD's performance and realizes they cant compete at the prices they used to ask for?

tehehe =)


I think Intel realizes that most people don't need to upgrade their computers. It isn't like it was 10 years ago where you couldn't edit video on a mainstream computer, or Photoshop operations were really slow. Today most people can do pretty much whatever they want on their current rigs. It's a smaller and smaller percentage of power users that require more power. If Intel didn't price SB correctly they simply wouldn't sell processors. Shoot, even gamers realize that most any C2D can game adequately with the right graphics card(s).

This is anecdotal but I wouldn't be thinking of upgrading to SB is they 2500k wasn't priced to competitively for it's raw processing power.
 

Martimus

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Apr 24, 2007
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I think Intel realizes that most people don't need to upgrade their computers. It isn't like it was 10 years ago where you couldn't edit video on a mainstream computer, or Photoshop operations were really slow. Today most people can do pretty much whatever they want on their current rigs. It's a smaller and smaller percentage of power users that require more power. If Intel didn't price SB correctly they simply wouldn't sell processors. Shoot, even gamers realize that most any C2D can game adequately with the right graphics card(s).

This is anecdotal but I wouldn't be thinking of upgrading to SB is they 2500k wasn't priced to competitively for it's raw processing power.

Intels new strategy is to sell the processors for less, while charging a higher premium on the chipset. This allows the setup to appear cheaper, but to actually maintain the same profit margin. This is also the biggest reason why Intel locked out nVidia from making chipsets for their i-series processors, since that would destroy this new strategy.
 

Daedalus685

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Nov 12, 2009
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Do AMD motherboards support Tri/Quad SLI, or even SLI at all?

No, SLI will likely never crop up on an AMD board again, not as long as it requires licencing anyway.

They support quad Crossfire fine though, and there is no technical reason why SLI wouldn't work (there are enthusiast mods for it). It is merely a licencing thing, but I'm not sure if that fee is paid by a manufacturer like asus or the chipset company themselves (AMD).
 

hamunaptra

Senior member
May 24, 2005
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I was not aware that there is no software that needs to be run faster. I should let intel know.



We will not market modules. A zambezi will have 8 cores and handles 8 threads.

Hey JF, so one of the first chips to launch for the desktop, will indeed be an 8 core?
If so man I hope its priced nicely.
If thats the case then....
Goodbye to anything intel quad core w/ HT....bulldozer will for sure murder it.
So, on AMD side of things....
The new "dual core" will be a quad core BD?
The new "quad core"will be a 8 core BD?
Keeping the traditional sense...
 

SunnyD

Belgian Waffler
Jan 2, 2001
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I think you are taking 50% performance as an exact number. It's probably a very close estimate.

For example, Phenom II X6 1100T gets 5.90 in Cinebench while i7-950 gets 5.57. If BD gets 8.8 in Cinebench at stock speeds, it is ~ between 49% and 57% faster, respectively. You can just make a general statement that states BD can be around 50% faster than both in multi-threaded apps, which would be accurate in this instance.

You're reading too much into it... I'm poking fun at stupid blanket statements.
 

JFAMD

Senior member
May 16, 2009
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Hey JF, so one of the first chips to launch for the desktop, will indeed be an 8 core?
If so man I hope its priced nicely.
If thats the case then....
Goodbye to anything intel quad core w/ HT....bulldozer will for sure murder it.
So, on AMD side of things....
The new "dual core" will be a quad core BD?
The new "quad core"will be a 8 core BD?
Keeping the traditional sense...

Yes first parts are 8-core client parts.
 

hamunaptra

Senior member
May 24, 2005
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Oh man, thats freakin awesome news! now lets hope for decent prices and AWESOME performance...and a heck of a clockspeed, especially when OC'n!!
 

bryanW1995

Lifer
May 22, 2007
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er, uh, you dont fire your ceo for producing a chip that outperforms the competition by 50%

this is the same board that brought you hector ruiz. anything is possible with them. you know, because a kicka$$ bulldozer means nothing if you don't have a good mobile strategy!
 

bryanW1995

Lifer
May 22, 2007
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Yes first parts are 8-core client parts.

Can you comment on why consumer was pushed ahead of server launch? Is it due to issues with 16 core modules, higher visibility for consumer launch, strength of current opteron sales, etc etc?

If 8 core really launches in 2Q that might be a bit too soon for me... I was planning on a BF 2011 upgrade.

@hamunaptra: technically we should hope for awesome performance and high prices (at least for the highest skus), but lower/reasonable prices on lower skus with lower clocks. Intel's current tactic sucks for us OC'ers, hopefully AMD will give us something we can play with ;)
 
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piesquared

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Oct 16, 2006
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No, they doubled the threads they can run with pretty much the same hardware, which improves efficiency (of hardware resources and therefore manufacturing costs). So haw is that poor design?
....

because you are looking at it from the present point of view. now what happens if and when Bulldozer's design puts ht to shame? it'll pail in comparison, and look like a relatively very poor design decision, that's how. You know, just like how the intel fanboy's claim ht is a better design decision than cores, even though ht shows -5% - +30%. Suppose, AMD's new FlexFP and dual core module design puts ht to shame, which by all accounts appears to be the case with +80% performance boost from the second integer core, will you still claim ht is a better design decision?

no doubt the viral marketing team will
 

bryanW1995

Lifer
May 22, 2007
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they're both attacking the "additional threads" problem from different angles. HT is a simple, cheap, and relatively easy to implement design. native 2+ core modules is highly complex and a significant departure from current designs for both companies. If the BD design is successful then intel can copy it, and they'll probably end up doing it better than amd does (eventually) if they decide to go that route. however, for a while at least the landscape should be more competitive again.
 

hamunaptra

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May 24, 2005
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they're both attacking the "additional threads" problem from different angles. HT is a simple, cheap, and relatively easy to implement design. native 2+ core modules is highly complex and a significant departure from current designs for both companies. If the BD design is successful then intel can copy it, and they'll probably end up doing it better than amd does (eventually) if they decide to go that route. however, for a while at least the landscape should be more competitive again.


Well Im hoping AMD designed the BD architecture to be really flexible as far as future enhancements go, allowing them to tack on several features at will without having to do tons of R&D and redesign from the bottom up. The modular approach is pretty cool to begin with and I read somewhere, that since the FPU cluster is kinda like a co FPU processor of the old days (meaning the int cores / the shared schedulers and fetchers can tap into it whenever needed) that means they can modify that FPU cluster at will, pretty much anytime without having to modify other parts of the module significantly.
So , maybe in the future they can cram a GPU cluster into that exact spot as well. Or a wider FPU if needed.

Point is, if intel designs something similar in the future, hopefully the BD can easily catch up to it / stay current with minor changes to the arch itself.
 

hamunaptra

Senior member
May 24, 2005
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Can you comment on why consumer was pushed ahead of server launch? Is it due to issues with 16 core modules, higher visibility for consumer launch, strength of current opteron sales, etc etc?

If 8 core really launches in 2Q that might be a bit too soon for me... I was planning on a BF 2011 upgrade.

@hamunaptra: technically we should hope for awesome performance and high prices (at least for the highest skus), but lower/reasonable prices on lower skus with lower clocks. Intel's current tactic sucks for us OC'ers, hopefully AMD will give us something we can play with ;)


Well Im hoping for midend parts that clock EXTREMELY well and for really nice prices, bringing back amazing bang for buck. Im also wondering if there will be any 4 core mid end parts that will be full fledged 8 core parts but disabled due to defects / demand, in which case if they will be unlockable or not like current X2's and so on....

This would be freakin awesome, and like I said 5.5ghz on air OC!!! OOOO that would be so nice woot!
 

Kuzi

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Sep 16, 2007
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just a question, what ipc advantages? we don't know anything about BD.

If you correlate from the performance figures of some slide and you assume the performance is from highly multithreaded applications and you try to correlate that to single thread performance you will also have to remove the HT factor which can also lead up to 30% in some multitasked programs which also needs to be corrected.

Actually we have enough info about BD to know that it wasn't designed to be an IPC demon. We also know that AMD simplified certain areas of the cores to save die space/power, and they increased the pipeline depth which could lower performance but allow higher clocks.

If you check right now, SB has between 30-40% higher IPC than Phenom II, that is a very large gap and I don't believe AMD can get such a jump from one architecture. Yes they did it in the past with Athlon 64, but you can only integrate the IMC once :)
 

JFAMD

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May 16, 2009
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Can you comment on why consumer was pushed ahead of server launch? Is it due to issues with 16 core modules, higher visibility for consumer launch, strength of current opteron sales, etc etc?

If 8 core really launches in 2Q that might be a bit too soon for me... I was planning on a BF 2011 upgrade.

@hamunaptra: technically we should hope for awesome performance and high prices (at least for the highest skus), but lower/reasonable prices on lower skus with lower clocks. Intel's current tactic sucks for us OC'ers, hopefully AMD will give us something we can play with ;)

Desktop wasn't pushed ahead of server. Every single release is different based on a set of variables that I won't get into. Desktop was first this round, but each round is a seperate decision (like the number that landed on the last spin of the roulette wheel.)

Desktop has always been ahead of server on this architecture, from way back.
 

hamunaptra

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May 24, 2005
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just a question, what ipc advantages? we don't know anything about BD.

If you correlate from the performance figures of some slide and you assume the performance is from highly multithreaded applications and you try to correlate that to single thread performance you will also have to remove the HT factor which can also lead up to 30% in some multitasked programs which also needs to be corrected.

If you read this article:
http://www.realworldtech.com/page.cfm?ArticleID=RWT082610181333&p=2
It explains pretty much about everything we know of the BD core as of the date of the article which is surprisingly almost the same stuff we know now.
It points out AMD has made MANY IPC enhancements throughout the core, despite adding more stages to the pipes and other things needed to achieve high clock speeds.

They have kinda done a best of all 3 worlds with IPC, clockspeed and power management.

At least this is the case we are hoping for!

They are implementing some things that originally made core2 a lot faster clock for clock.
They are implementing PRF over ROB, they are sharing the schedulers and many components. They are doing many things different that increase IPC and power consumption, while also making things able to achieve higher clocks. Its gonna be extremely interesting!
 
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hamunaptra

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May 24, 2005
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Here you go guys, this explains the aims of between BD and SB and what to expect:
http://www.realworldtech.com./page.cfm?ArticleID=RWT091810191937&p=10

Quoted from article:

With the limited details, it is hard to predict the chip level performance for products based on these two microarchitectures. Frequencies are still undisclosed, or have yet to be determined and the client and server products will be rather different. In the case of Sandy Bridge, the clock speed should be in the same vicinity as Nehalem or Westmere – however, Bulldozer is clearly intended to run faster, but the frequency will probably be dictated by power consumption. For Bulldozer, there are also numerous details on the integration (e.g. L3 cache design, snoop filter) that are undisclosed. Nonetheless, it is possible to make some educated estimates about the performance of the two microarchitectures.

In looking at the two designs, it is sensible to compare a multi-threaded Sandy Bridge core to a Bulldozer module and separately consider single threaded operation as a special case. Both support two threads although the resources are very different. At a high level, Sandy Bridge shares everything between threads, whereas Bulldozer flexibly shares the front-end and floating point units, while separating the integer cores.

A Sandy Bridge core should have substantially higher performance than a Bulldozer module across the board for single threaded or lightly threaded code. It will also have an additional advantage for floating point workloads that use AVX, (e.g. numerical analysis for finance, engineering). With AVX, each Sandy Bridge core can have up to 2X the FLOP/cycle of a Bulldozer module, although they would be at parity if the code is compiled to use AMD’s FMA4 (e.g. via OpenCL). FMA4 will be relatively rare because, while elegant, it is likely to be a historical footnote for x86, supplanted by Intel’s FMA3. For software still relying on SSE, the difference between the two should be minimal. In comparison, Bulldozer will favor heavily multi-threaded software. Each module has twice the memory pipelines and slightly more resources (e.g. retirement queue/ROB entries, memory buffers) than a single Sandy Bridge core with two threads, so Bulldozer should do very well in many highly parallel integer workloads that exercise the memory pipelines.

In many ways, the strengths of Sandy Bridge reflect the intentions of the architects. Sandy Bridge is first and foremost a client microprocessor – which requires single threaded performance. Bulldozer is firmly aimed at the server market, where sacrificing single threaded performance for aggregate throughput is an acceptable decision in some cases. Perhaps in future articles, we can examine the components of performance in greater detail (e.g. frequency, IPC, etc.), but for now, high level guidance seems appropriate – given the level of disclosure from both vendors.

Ultimately, we will be waiting for real hardware to see how the Sandy Bridge client performs in the wild. The base clocks, realistic turbo frequencies and power consumption will all be very interesting to observe – and help estimate server performance as well. For now the hardware certainly looks promising and while we await products, we’ll have other reports on different aspects of Sandy Bridge to keep us occupied. The design team certainly deserves a round of congratulations for a job well done, redoing the microarchitecture from the ground up while tackling all the integration challenges.

----END ARTICLE


Now I believe, since the BD does indeed sacrifice IPC...compared to what we are not sure, I have a feeling desktop CPU's will be able to scale easily really, according to design of the chip. But if the manufacturing process is not really awesome to begin with, we can expect those high clocks to be lower =/

Simply put BD will shine in multithreaded stuff when its clocked extremely high. SB can only clock so high..., if AMD did this right BD will be able to clock higher than SB any day. Which they need to be the case in order to offer competitive desktop performance.
 
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bmadd89

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if the manufacturing process is not really awesome to begin with, we can expect those high clocks to be lower

Intels way has always been never to do a new process with a new arch. As much as i want BD to be what we all want, what are the chances of a brand new process with a brand new arch (even if it is designed for frequency) getting close to 4ghz?

I mean how long has amd had 45nm and phenom II out of the gate for?? And there doing 3.5ghz on them only now?

Sure they can be clocked to over 4ghz long ago (Hell my 720 has been sitting on 3.8 core, 2.8 NB almost since i bought it at release) but they were not sold at that speed for a reason just like SB can do over 4ghz easy so why not release them at that?

I mean im going to probably buy one anyway cause i want an 8core but you gotta look at the facts.

New process + New Design = Ooodles of things that can go wrong just like barcelona
 
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BLaber

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Jun 23, 2008
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No, SLI will likely never crop up on an AMD board again, not as long as it requires licencing anyway.

They support quad Crossfire fine though, and there is no technical reason why SLI wouldn't work (there are enthusiast mods for it). It is merely a licencing thing, but I'm not sure if that fee is paid by a manufacturer like asus or the chipset company themselves (AMD).


If you google you will find the software that lets you run SLi on amd mobos with latest nvidia drivers .. many people are already running SLI on AMD mobos :D
 

Skurge

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Aug 17, 2009
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Intels way has always been never to do a new process with a new arch. As much as i want BD to be what we all want, what are the chances of a brand new process with a brand new arch (even if it is designed for frequency) getting close to 4ghz?

I mean how long has amd had 45nm and phenom II out of the gate for?? And there doing 3.5ghz on them only now?

Sure they can be clocked to over 4ghz long ago (Hell my 720 has been sitting on 3.8 core, 2.8 NB almost since i bought it at release) but they were not sold at that speed for a reason just like SB can do over 4ghz easy so why not release them at that?

I mean im going to probably buy one anyway cause i want an 8core but you gotta look at the facts.

New process + New Design = Ooodles of things that can go wrong just like barcelona

Wasnt Barcelona on the same process as the last Athlon X2s?
 
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