Rotor Warping on 2004 Accord EX Coupe???

[Starbuck1975]

My wife has a 2004 Honda Accord Coupe with 28,000 miles on it. Over the past several weeks, she has complained of vibrations in the wheel when breaking at typical highway speeds.

This past Friday, we noticed an audible scraping sound coming from the car...definitely a metal on metal high pitched noise, but it did not happen continuously where we could correlate the noise to the car.

Yesterday, the noise started occurring more frequently, and it seems to happen when she brakes...but not all the time...sometimes she brakes and there isn't a noise at all...it seems to be most common when the car is braking at low speeds, especially through turns.

I got out of the car, and had her drive around a parking lot, trying different speeds, turns and braking combinations...the sound is definitely coming from the driver's side rear tire.

After doing some searches online, we have read some complaints from other Accord owners of brake rotors warping...I was under the impression that rotors last a bit longer than 28,000 miles??? I did a few searches on Honda Service Bulletins and Tech Recalls, but didn't find anything specific to the 04 Accord having faulty or defective rotors.

I did find one forum where a user complained about the same problem we are encountering, and he mentioned a recurring rotor warping problem with the 04 Accord.

I plan on taking the car to the dealership, but I am not sure they will find the problem, and even if they do, I am not confident they will be able to fix the problem where it will not happen again.

Any suggestions on how to resolve this issue, or is anyone aware of such a problem at all with the 04 Accord Coupe?

 

[GoatMonkey]

It is unusual for the rear brakes to warp first if that is what has happened. I think it is still pretty unlikely that the dealer will replace brakes under warranty, but you have a slim chance if it is really just one rear brake.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Well we are two weeks past the 3 year Honda warranty, so I don't think we will be able to play the warranty card...and I havent found any service bulletins specific to defective rotors, but I have found a few internet articles of Honda being aware of the problem...with Accord owners as early as the mid 90s reporting a similar problem.

 

[HiTek21]

Maybe the rear caliper are dragging due to the pison not retracting. It usually occurs on the rears due to the parking brake. I had an issue with my old 91 Prelude where the rear calipers piston wouldn't retract causing excessive friction on the rotors. I was driving to a friends house and when I got there I ran over a puddle of water and steam was coming out of my rear tires. Eventually the rotors warped to the point where when you braked you could hear an odd creaking sound coming from the rear. I thought it was my rear suspension creaking but it only happened when I was braking. When I inspected it the rotors were warped pretty bad.

Try driving it when the car is cool with as little braking as possible and see if the rear wheels are hotter than usual.

 

[OS]

it's a common problem, even at that mileage, honda picked crappy brake pad material for the earlier accords of that generation.

The rotors don't actually warp, the pads overheat easily, leaving uneven pad material deposits on the rotors.

pad deposits and surface cracks

It is easy enough to fix, if you have visible damage on the rotors like above, replace the rotors with something reputable like brembo blanks and use high quality aftermarket pads like hawk hps, both of which you can get from tirerack.com

 

[Pacfanweb]

It sounds like your brakes are worn out, in addition to the rotors being warped. And the rotors may or may not be warped because of a defect....could just be the way your GF drives.

And yes, the rotors are actually warped. Especially the ones in that picture linked above. It's not just pad material on the rotor.

 

[Starbuck1975]

It is easy enough to fix, if you have visible damage on the rotors like above, replace the rotors with something reputable like brembo blanks and use high quality aftermarket pads like hawk hps, both of which you can get from tirerack.com

I inspected the rotors and do not see the damage you mentioned. The rotors are shiny metallic...not sure what metal they are made of...but they are smooth, with no visible residue, cracking or damage that I can see.

If it turns out that what you say is correct...that the brake pad material on earlier Accords of the '04 generation were cheap parts, any way I can make a warranty issue of it? Is there any documentation that supports this claim?

 

[OS]

if you have no visible damage, I've heard of people getting away with just switching pad types to cure the problem. I've never tried that myself though.

here is the honda TSB on this

here is an article on how this happens

oh finally remember to follow proper bedding procedure when you install new pads

 

[steppinthrax]

Originally posted by: OS
if you have no visible damage, I've heard of people getting away with just switching pad types to cure the problem. I've never tried that myself though.

here is the honda TSB on this

here is an article on how this happens

oh finally remember to follow proper bedding procedure when you install new pads

Do you know if at any time someone had to take off that wheel to change a tire or do some work there. In most cars the actual wheel holds the rotor in place. If the WHEEL LUG NUTS are not torqued correctly that can be the cause. Especially if your using alloy rims which are common.

 

[Apex]

Originally posted by: OS

it's a common problem, even at that mileage, honda picked crappy brake pad material for the earlier accords of that generation.

The rotors don't actually warp, the pads overheat easily, leaving uneven pad material deposits on the rotors.

pad deposits and surface cracks

It is easy enough to fix, if you have visible damage on the rotors like above, replace the rotors with something reputable like brembo blanks and use high quality aftermarket pads like hawk hps, both of which you can get from tirerack.com

Yep, vast majority of them are deposit issues, not warpage.

http://www.stoptech.com/tech_i...warped_brakedisk.shtml

 

[Starbuck1975]

Just got back from the dealership, and was told this is fairly common for the rear brake pads to wear down relatively quickly, and that the noise we are hearing is the brake pad sensor.

Remedy is to simply replace the brake pads and resurface the rotors.

The service tech informed us that since they stopped using asbestos in brake pads, it is a common problem for heat to build up and cause newer brake pads to deteriorate quicker than on older cars.

That, and due to the stop and go nature of SoCal traffic, and the year round heat, it places even more of a strain on the brake pads.

He told us we were lucky to make 28,000 miles without requiring a replacement...apparently, the brake pads on the rear tires are half the thickness of the front brake pads, which makes the Accord particularly prone to such deterioration.

So, looks like we will simply need a typical brake service to repair the problem.

 

[steppinthrax]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
Just got back from the dealership, and was told this is fairly common for the rear brake pads to wear down relatively quickly, and that the noise we are hearing is the brake pad sensor.

Remedy is to simply replace the brake pads and resurface the rotors.

The service tech informed us that since they stopped using asbestos in brake pads, it is a common problem for heat to build up and cause newer brake pads to deteriorate quicker than on older cars.

That, and due to the stop and go nature of SoCal traffic, and the year round heat, it places even more of a strain on the brake pads.

He told us we were lucky to make 28,000 miles without requiring a replacement...apparently, the brake pads on the rear tires are half the thickness of the front brake pads, which makes the Accord particularly prone to such deterioration.

So, looks like we will simply need a typical brake service to repair the problem.

I don't understand and I always thought the front brake pads wear out first. The rears usually wear out in the middle of the 2nd set of new front pads. At least that what I've seen from experience.

 

[Demo24]

happened to us. The front rotors warped I believe under 20k. They fixed it under warrenty.

 

[Starbuck1975]

That would seem to make sense, but in our case, the front brakes were at 60% and the rear brakes were at 0%...the service tech told me that the rear brakes on Accords are half the thickness of the front brakes...throw in a warm climate and constant traffic braking, and you have the conditions for accelerated brake wear.

 

[Engineer]

As steppinthrax stated, have you had your tires rotated or removed before this? I can tell you from experience that improper torquing of the lug nuts can warp a rotor, and sometimes fast. I bought a torque wrench just to change my brake pads last time I did it because of the previous issues I've had with warping rotors from improperly torqued wheels.

 

[thomsbrain]

I have double the mileage on mine, and the rotors seem fine. the pads don't show any noticeable wear, either. maybe your wife is just a wait-until-the-last-minute style braker? i know my mom has a reputation in our family for driving like that, and she warps rotors on her volvo like they're made of tin foil. stand on the brakes repeatedly and them hold them down (like at a traffic light), and that's a recipe for warped rotors. i know that freeway traffic can make those situations unavoidable from time to time, of course.

 

[OS]

Originally posted by: thomsbrain
I have double the mileage on mine, and the rotors seem fine. the pads don't show any noticeable wear, either. maybe your wife is just a wait-until-the-last-minute style braker? i know my mom has a reputation in our family for driving like that, and she warps rotors on her volvo like they're made of tin foil. stand on the brakes repeatedly and them hold them down (like at a traffic light), and that's a recipe for warped rotors. i know that freeway traffic can make those situations unavoidable from time to time, of course.

if you have a six speed, the V6 6MT accord comes with bigger brakes/rotors that can take more abuse.

 

[redgtxdi]

FWIW, I warp rotors on every single vehicle I own.


There is NO vehicle out there that can withstand my SoCal born & raised, stomping led foot!! NONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



I have simply come to the conclusion that I get about 20-30K miles out of a set of brakes before I have to replace them. Yes, I do them myself..............Yes, I know what I'm doing..............Yes, I've used just about every brake rotor and pad under the sun aside from the high-dollar Brembo stuff.

It's all in the rotor!

I am of the VERY firm belief that current automotive engineers look for maximum efficiency in every dimension during brake design. They could slightly "over-engineer" brakes, but they don't. They take it to the 99% vs. the 101% mark and hold the line there.

Previous gen Toyota Tundras were a great example of this!

 

[thomsbrain]

Originally posted by: OS
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: thomsbrain
I have double the mileage on mine, and the rotors seem fine. the pads don't show any noticeable wear, either. maybe your wife is just a wait-until-the-last-minute style braker? i know my mom has a reputation in our family for driving like that, and she warps rotors on her volvo like they're made of tin foil. stand on the brakes repeatedly and them hold them down (like at a traffic light), and that's a recipe for warped rotors. i know that freeway traffic can make those situations unavoidable from time to time, of course.</end quote></div>

if you have a six speed, the V6 6MT accord comes with bigger brakes/rotors that can take more abuse.

mine's the auto sedan.

 

[Apex]

For those of you warping your brakes:

Are you just unlucky with the build quality of your hub & wheel flange, or do the shops you continually go to always manage to mis-torque your wheel lugs?

 

[mshan]

I think you have brake judder:


Brake judder is usually perceived by the driver as minor to severe vibrations transferred through the chassis during braking.
The judder phenomenon can be classified into two distinct subgroups; they are Hot (Thermal) or Cold Judder.
Hot judder is usually produced as a result of longer more moderate braking from high speed where the vehicle does not come to a complete stop. It commonly occurs when a motorist decelerates from speeds of around 120 km/h to about 60 km/h, which results in severe vibrations being transmitted to the driver. These vibrations are the result of uneven thermal distributions believed to be the result of phenomena called Hot Spots. Hot Spots are classified as concentrated thermal regions that alternate between both sides of a disc that distort it in such a way that produces a sinusoidal waviness around its edges. Once the brake pads (friction material / brake lining) comes in contact with the sinusoidal surface during braking severe vibrations are induced as a result and can produce hazardous conditions for the person driving the vehicle.
Cold judder on the other hand is the result of uneven disc wear patterns or DTV. These variations in the disc surface are usually the result of extensive vehicle road usage. DTV is usually attributed to the following causes: waviness of rotor surface, misalignment of axis (Runout), elastic deflection, thermal distortion, wear and friction material transfers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disc_brake

With a warped rotor, I believe you should get vibrations even when tapping on the brakes lightly.


EDIT: "This past Friday, we noticed an audible scraping sound coming from the car...definitely a metal on metal high pitched noise, but it did not happen continuously where we could correlate the noise to the car. "

Your brake pads may be wearing out. They may have a bent metal tab on them designed to contact the brake rotor when the brake pad wears out, producing the scraping noise you describe:
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/disc-brake4.htm


EDIT #2: Don't know specifics about the Honda, but some cars have disc brakes in front, and drum brakes in the back:
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/drum-brake.htm

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Apex
For those of you warping your brakes:

Are you just unlucky with the build quality of your hub & wheel flange, or do the shops you continually go to always manage to mis-torque your wheel lugs?

I was going to suggest changing the screw threads and only doing hand tightening.
Sure sounds like air gun overtorqing messing the balance of the rotor up.

May have to start with fresh rotors because once they get out of shape all the cutting won't help.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: Apex
For those of you warping your brakes:

Are you just unlucky with the build quality of your hub & wheel flange, or do the shops you continually go to always manage to mis-torque your wheel lugs?

The shop that I've used in the past has always used a torque wrench for final tightening and they list the correct torque (100 ft-pounds) on the invoice. I've come to the conclusion that Dodge vehicles tend to warp rotors no matter what (which is what I currently drive and was my previous vehicle also).

 

[Apex]

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: Apex
For those of you warping your brakes:

Are you just unlucky with the build quality of your hub & wheel flange, or do the shops you continually go to always manage to mis-torque your wheel lugs?

The shop that I've used in the past has always used a torque wrench for final tightening and they list the correct torque (100 ft-pounds) on the invoice. I've come to the conclusion that Dodge vehicles tend to warp rotors no matter what (which is what I currently drive and was my previous vehicle also).

Read about the brake warping MYTH, from one of the top brake manufacturers:

http://www.stoptech.com/tech_i...warped_brakedisk.shtml

It's either incorrectly torqued lugs (which you confirmed it's not), or hubs/flanges that have not been manufactured flat.

Short of that, it's mistaking brake pad deposits and hotspotting for warped rotors.

 

[mshan]

Excellent link!