Rookie of the Year, Baseball

[Ynog]

Didn't see a post before, I apologize if this as already been addressed.

Now this is inspired from an article from ESPN.

The jist of it goes should Japanese players who have been playing in Japan, be eligible
for the rookie of the year?

Like this year its likely the AL Rookie of the Year will be Matusi.
But much like Ichiro, he has been playing professional baseball (in Japan) for
a while. And he really isn't a true rookie. Not like a Scott Podsednik or
Rocco Baldelli.

And another point made was guys like Ichiro, who people say could be a hall of famer.
But the Baseball Hall of Fame requires endurance and lasting in the game, meaning you
have played for alot of seasons. And it was pointed out that Sportscaster and writers,
when asked about this, say well Ichiro was unbelievable in Japan and that should count
for him. But how can it count for one and not the other.

Just curious on what baseball fans think.

 

[PlatinumGold]

matsui DEFINITELY the ROY.

Many people compare the Japanese leagues to Triple A. about right i think.

Matsui is ALL that and more. 2nd on the Yankees for RBI, decent BA, decent Power, not the monster expected but decent and the BIG surprise, better than average Defense.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

Neither Matsui nor Ichiro should be (or have been) eligible for Rookie of the Year. As long-term professional ballplayers who played against the strongest players in their league, they're established veterans. I feel the same way about NFL players who start in the CFL or NBA players who start in Europe. If you're making your living playing ball for years in another league, you're not a rookie. RotY should go to a true rookie, a player that has never played anywhere but the minors.

And stats earned in other leagues should not count towards Hall of Fame consideration. The Japan league is around AAA level, but other professional leagues are much worse. How much is batting .350 in the Guatamalan Summer Beer League worth? I'm not impressed by anyone that made the All-Star team in the Lower Rwanda City League. All accomplishments that count towards induction need to be done against established competition where the quality is known.

 

[Mr N8]

Yeah, I think only true rookies to any pro ball should be considered. I would say if they held to that Scott Podsednik would be a strong contender for ROY. He's going to be one hell of a good ball player.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt
Neither Matsui nor Ichiro should be (or have been) eligible for Rookie of the Year. As long-term professional ballplayers who played against the strongest players in their league, they're established veterans. I feel the same way about NFL players who start in the CFL or NBA players who start in Europe. If you're making your living playing ball for years in another league, you're not a rookie. RotY should go to a true rookie, a player that has never played anywhere but the minors.

And stats earned in other leagues should not count towards Hall of Fame consideration. The Japan league is around AAA level, but other professional leagues are much worse. How much is batting .350 in the Guatamalan Summer Beer League worth? I'm not impressed by anyone that made the All-Star team in the Lower Rwanda City League. All accomplishments that count towards induction need to be done against established competition where the quality is known.

you are arguing against yourself.

it should be consistent. IF THEY ARE not rookies, then their previous stats count. IF they are rookies than their previous stats DO not count.

Minor league players earn a living playing ball, that should not be the basis of whethor or not someone is a rookie. a rookie is someone playing MLB level play for the FIRST time in their respective careers. Matsui is playing MLB for the FIRST time in his career. Many Minor leaguers play for 3, 4 or more years before making it to the show, does that make them NON rookies? NO.

however, as rookies, ONLY their MLB play should count towards HOF status.

 

[Francodman]

NL rookie of the year: Brandon Webb or Posednik

AL rookie of the year: Well, Baldelli was making his case, but lowered his average to around .300. Angel Berroa is a stud (of course, he's a Billy Beane talent), but it'll probably go to Matsui.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: MogulMonster
Yeah, I think only true rookies to any pro ball should be considered. I would say if they held to that Scott Podsednik would be a strong contender for ROY. He's going to be one hell of a good ball player.

again, Matsui is a ROOKIE to major league ball. YES or NO??

it's simple he is a rookie to mlb.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

you are arguing against yourself.

it should be consistent. IF THEY ARE not rookies, then their previous stats count. IF they are rookies than their previous stats DO not count.

Minor league players earn a living playing ball, that should not be the basis of whethor or not someone is a rookie. a rookie is someone playing MLB level play for the FIRST time in their respective careers. Matsui is playing MLB for the FIRST time in his career. Many Minor leaguers play for 3, 4 or more years before making it to the show, does that make them NON rookies? NO.

however, as rookies, ONLY their MLB play should count towards HOF status.

That's complete garbage. If past stats count, include Little League, high school, college, minors and pick-up game Saturday afternoon in the park. Quite clearly, those stats are not included because the competition is inferior and therefore anything done against that competition is tainted. Batting .600 in Little League does not make you a hall of famer, 'nuff said.

Likewise, the Rookie of the Year award is clearly designed for a newcomer to the professional ranks. It's a measure of how a player adapts to top-level competition, the rigors of travel, the pressure of playing before a packed stadium, TV cameras, etc. Matsui and Ichiro already have that experience. They have played at the highest level available to them, traveled, dealt with full season schedules, constant attention, cameras, championships, hero-worship, etc. They have experience that true rookies lack and that gives them a HUGE advantage.

You're working on the farcical assumption that the criteria for HoF and RotY are the same and that identical standards apply. That is 100% untrue. They're seperate awards and are judged on completely unrelated criteria. Saying that both must be judged by exactly the same standards is akin to judging a dog show and a boxing match the same way. Apples to oranges.

 

[Toasthead]

Originally posted by: Francodman
NL rookie of the year: Brandon Webb or Posednik

AL rookie of the year: Well, Baldelli was making his case, but lowered his average to around .300. Angel Berroa is a stud (of course, he's a Billy Beane talent), but it'll probably go to Matsui.

NL ROY is Dontrelle Willis.

 

[Spoooon]

Another point the article made was how leagues in Japan should be viewed. If you want to consider them another pro league, then maybe ROY for an import wouldn't be appropriate. If you think of them as triple A or some such, then sure.

It's hard to say. I think that if you want to include numbers for their seasons in Japan, then maybe ROY should go to a true rookie playing his first season of pro ball. They could just have an award for the import player of the year and include his numbers playing in Japan when considering him for hall of fame.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: Spoooon
Another point the article made was how leagues in Japan should be viewed. If you want to consider them another pro league, then maybe ROY for an import wouldn't be appropriate. If you think of them as triple A or some such, then sure.

It's hard to say. I think that if you want to include numbers for their seasons in Japan, then maybe ROY should go to a true rookie playing his first season of pro ball. They could just have an award for the import player of the year and include his numbers playing in Japan when considering him for hall of fame.

Are triple A Players NOT paid to play? Why do i keep seeing "Professional Ball" in this thread. How exactly are you defining Professional Ball??


I've always thought that if you got Paid to play baseball you were a Professinal baseball player. is there another definition i'm unaware of?

how is it that prospects can be in Triple A ball for 4 or 5 years and STILL be considered a rookie and a player like Matsui comes over and He's NOT a rookie.

SO how many years in the Japanese league would eliminate a person from Rookie consideration?

IT is Matsui's FIRST YEAR playing MLB ball therefore he is a Rookie.

 

[Spoooon]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: Spoooon
Another point the article made was how leagues in Japan should be viewed. If you want to consider them another pro league, then maybe ROY for an import wouldn't be appropriate. If you think of them as triple A or some such, then sure.

It's hard to say. I think that if you want to include numbers for their seasons in Japan, then maybe ROY should go to a true rookie playing his first season of pro ball. They could just have an award for the import player of the year and include his numbers playing in Japan when considering him for hall of fame.

Are triple A Players NOT paid to play? Why do i keep seeing "Professional Ball" in this thread. How exactly are you defining Professional Ball??


I've always thought that if you got Paid to play baseball you were a Professinal baseball player. is there another definition i'm unaware of?

how is it that prospects can be in Triple A ball for 4 or 5 years and STILL be considered a rookie and a player like Matsui comes over and He's NOT a rookie.

SO how many years in the Japanese league would eliminate a person from Rookie consideration?

IT is Matsui's FIRST YEAR playing MLB ball therefore he is a Rookie.

I think when others say pro-ball, they mean major league baseball. Atleast, that's how I've been using it.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: Spoooon

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: Spoooon
Another point the article made was how leagues in Japan should be viewed. If you want to consider them another pro league, then maybe ROY for an import wouldn't be appropriate. If you think of them as triple A or some such, then sure.

It's hard to say. I think that if you want to include numbers for their seasons in Japan, then maybe ROY should go to a true rookie playing his first season of pro ball. They could just have an award for the import player of the year and include his numbers playing in Japan when considering him for hall of fame.

Are triple A Players NOT paid to play? Why do i keep seeing "Professional Ball" in this thread. How exactly are you defining Professional Ball??


I've always thought that if you got Paid to play baseball you were a Professinal baseball player. is there another definition i'm unaware of?

how is it that prospects can be in Triple A ball for 4 or 5 years and STILL be considered a rookie and a player like Matsui comes over and He's NOT a rookie.

SO how many years in the Japanese league would eliminate a person from Rookie consideration?

IT is Matsui's FIRST YEAR playing MLB ball therefore he is a Rookie.

I think when others say pro-ball, they mean major league baseball. Atleast, that's how I've been using it.

Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt
Neither Matsui nor Ichiro should be (or have been) eligible for Rookie of the Year. As long-term professional ballplayers who played against the strongest players in their league, they're established veterans. I feel the same way about NFL players who start in the CFL or NBA players who start in Europe. If you're making your living playing ball for years in another league, you're not a rookie. RotY should go to a true rookie, a player that has never played anywhere but the minors.

And stats earned in other leagues should not count towards Hall of Fame consideration. The Japan league is around AAA level, but other professional leagues are much worse. How much is batting .350 in the Guatamalan Summer Beer League worth? I'm not impressed by anyone that made the All-Star team in the Lower Rwanda City League. All accomplishments that count towards induction need to be done against established competition where the quality is known.

I think in the above passage Gaghalfrunt is CLEARLY NOT talking about MLB ballplayers when he says Long-term professional ball players.

i totally disagree with his opinon on basically all count except i don't think stats from ANY OTHER league EXCEPT MLB should count towards the MLB HOF. it's arrogant of the HOF in the USA to claim to be the HOF of ALL baseball. it is the HOF of MLB, the Japanese leagues can maintain their OWN HOF.

and one more time. Since THIS WAS Matsui's FIRST year playing MLB, he is a ROOKIE TO MLB. there is no other definition that makes sense.

 

[drum]

ok listen. the first rookie of the year came from the negro leagues. clearly a different league. i say give it to matsui if he's deserving

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: drum
ok listen. the first rookie of the year came from the negro leagues. clearly a different league. i say give it to matsui if he's deserving

Great example. and we know the negro leagues were probably closer in talent to MLB than the japanese leagues are today.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
matsui DEFINITELY the ROY.

Many people compare the Japanese leagues to Triple A. about right i think.

Matsui is ALL that and more. 2nd on the Yankees for RBI, decent BA, decent Power, not the monster expected but decent and the BIG surprise, better than average Defense.

I don't think Matsui should 'DEFINITELY' win the ROY. This isn't an argument about his being from Japanese Pro Baseball - it's simply about the statistics.

What about Angel Berroa? Jody Gerut? Matsui will probably win it because of the media hype, but the fact is that he's not anywhere near running away with it to say he'll 'definitely' win it.

Matsui has his RBIs because of the players in front of him. Not because of his talent alone. A .439 SLG is not decent power. It's poor for a LF. Should Matsui be able to win the ROY because he's from Japan? Sure. Will he probably win it because of the media hype? Probably. Does he DESERVE it over other players? I would say no, but it's debatable.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: MogulMonster
Yeah, I think only true rookies to any pro ball should be considered. I would say if they held to that Scott Podsednik would be a strong contender for ROY. He's going to be one hell of a good ball player.

Podsednik has no chance with Brandon Webb pitching in the NL, IMO. I'd rank the NL rookies like this: Webb, Willis, Podsednik, Phillips. One problem with Podsednik is that he's already what, 27 years old? He probably won't improve significantly like a 22 year old rookie might.

 

[manly]

I agree with PlatinumGold for once. Absolutely nobody equates the Japanese (or any other) league with MLB in quality, so playing in a lesser league does not change your MLB rookie status.

The same argument occurred in 1995 (I think) during Nomomania, when fans debated whether to give the ROY award to clearly the most dominant rookie player, or to a guy who had a solid but unspectacular second half.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Toasthead

Originally posted by: Francodman
NL rookie of the year: Brandon Webb or Posednik

AL rookie of the year: Well, Baldelli was making his case, but lowered his average to around .300. Angel Berroa is a stud (of course, he's a Billy Beane talent), but it'll probably go to Matsui.

NL ROY is Dontrelle Willis.

seconded. the guy is a bad ass

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
matsui DEFINITELY the ROY.

Many people compare the Japanese leagues to Triple A. about right i think.

Matsui is ALL that and more. 2nd on the Yankees for RBI, decent BA, decent Power, not the monster expected but decent and the BIG surprise, better than average Defense.

I don't think Matsui should 'DEFINITELY' win the ROY. This isn't an argument about his being from Japanese Pro Baseball - it's simply about the statistics.

What about Angel Berroa? Jody Gerut? Matsui will probably win it because of the media hype, but the fact is that he's not anywhere near running away with it to say he'll 'definitely' win it.

Matsui has his RBIs because of the players in front of him. Not because of his talent alone. A .439 SLG is not decent power. It's poor for a LF. Should Matsui be able to win the ROY because he's from Japan? Sure. Will he probably win it because of the media hype? Probably. Does he DESERVE it over other players? I would say no, but it's debatable.

i won't argue with you here. you are entitled to your opinion.

however when discussing whethor or not Matsui is a rookie to MLB i don't think it is a matter of opinion but a matter of definition.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: manly
I agree with PlatinumGold for once. Absolutely nobody equates the Japanese (or any other) league with MLB in quality, so playing in a lesser league does not change your MLB rookie status.

The same argument occurred in 1995 (I think) during Nomomania, when fans debated whether to give the ROY award to clearly the most dominant rookie player, or to a guy who had a solid but unspectacular second half.

hmmm. well i'm going to have to disagree with you.

i agree nobody equates the japanese league with the MLB, but EVEN IF IT WAS, it wouldn't change the fact that by DEFINITION, untill MLB and the Japanese leagues get together and form some kind of overriding organization, this was Matsui's FIRST year in MLB, hence he is a rookie.

 

[miri]

I actually think triple A baseball is on a higher level than Japan's major leagues.

2002 Matsui 500 AB 50HR .692 SLG Japan
2003 Matsui 558 AB 15HR .439 SLG MLB (MLB stats as of 9/10/2003)

Look at that power drop off! And he had 58 less AB in Japan!!

 

[PlatinumGold]

again. whethor or not Matsui deserves ROY, he is DEFINITELY a rookie until MLB decides to change the definition.