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Romania and Bulgaria accepted to join European Union on January 1st, 2007

Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,179
0
76
Good for them, hopefully they will keep up the reforms that have gotten them this far. Bulgaria in particular had changed a lot between 97 and 2004 (the last two times I was there), but it still has a long way to go...
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
29,505
3,008
126
Props to the EU for trying, but too often they sound like a bunch of bickering school kids. Although that?s much improved over the last two thousand years so maybe if they have more time to work at this it?ll come through for them.
 

Colt45

Lifer
Apr 18, 2001
19,722
0
0
I still have a hard time believing RO and BG are getting in before ex-yugoslavia.

Maybe things have changed there? somehow I doubt it.
The last time I was in Sofija they didn't even have lines on the roads, and that was only a couple years ago. Not to mention gas stations charging 30% on euros.

all politics anyways i guess.
 

fstime

Diamond Member
Jan 18, 2004
4,387
5
81
Romania is no where near the proper economic condition to join the EU however their 20 million will be easier to absorb than Turkey's 60-70 million.

Turkey needs to start to accept the Armenian and Pontian Genocide and also get there 48,000 troops the hell out of Cyprus.

There 32 year illigal occupation of Northen Cyprus won't help them seeing the entire island of Cyprus is a full EU member.

Maybe then they can start talking about joining up.

Turkey may have some nice cities in the western part but a high percentage is still 3rd world.

Mexico City also has skyscappers like Istanbul but it doesn't mean Mexico is doing well.
 

Aimster

Lifer
Jan 5, 2003
16,129
1
0
Originally posted by: BouZouki
Romania is no where near the proper economic condition to join the EU however their 20 million will be easier to absorb than Turkey's 60-70 million.

Turkey needs to start to accept the Armenian and Pontian Genocide and also get there 48,000 troops the hell out of Cyprus.

There 32 year illigal occupation of Northen Cyprus won't help them seeing the entire island of Cyprus is a full EU member.

Maybe then they can start talking about joining up.

Turkey may have some nice cities in the western part but a high percentage is still 3rd world.

Mexico City also has skyscappers like Istanbul but it doesn't mean Mexico is doing well.
Turkey not joining the EU has nothing to do with their recognition of genocide IMO. That is just an excuse.

It has to do with the fact that Turkey is a Muslim country. Europe is afraid of being dominated by Muslims.

Turkey looks just like the U.S. Beautiful populated cities, with the outskirts looking rather plain. Turkey is def. not an economic leader, but their GDP is growing at 6-8% and this is without significant oil revenue.
I believe Turkey has significantly cut back on its debts as well.
Still they will never be part of the EU for the fact that they are a Muslim nation.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,276
2,973
126
Originally posted by: Aimster
Originally posted by: BouZouki
Romania is no where near the proper economic condition to join the EU however their 20 million will be easier to absorb than Turkey's 60-70 million.

Turkey needs to start to accept the Armenian and Pontian Genocide and also get there 48,000 troops the hell out of Cyprus.

There 32 year illigal occupation of Northen Cyprus won't help them seeing the entire island of Cyprus is a full EU member.

Maybe then they can start talking about joining up.

Turkey may have some nice cities in the western part but a high percentage is still 3rd world.

Mexico City also has skyscappers like Istanbul but it doesn't mean Mexico is doing well.
Turkey not joining the EU has nothing to do with their recognition of genocide IMO. That is just an excuse.

It has to do with the fact that Turkey is a Muslim country. Europe is afraid of being dominated by Muslims.

Turkey looks just like the U.S. Beautiful populated cities, with the outskirts looking rather plain. Turkey is def. not an economic leader, but their GDP is growing at 6-8% and this is without significant oil revenue.
I believe Turkey has significantly cut back on its debts as well.
Still they will never be part of the EU for the fact that they are a Muslim nation.
Thats very true!!!

While on the subjwct of a "unified" Europe.....
On paper someday maybe....
In reality it will never happen....
Nobody trusts the Germans and likewise the Germans only care about themselves they actually hate everybody else...

When I lived in Europe I did Translation from Polish to German...and Czech and even some Russian...
The thing that amazed me most was the way the German`s would treat these other countries as if they needed what the German`s had to offer more than the Germans needing them....

Unified Europe---NERVER!!
 

AnitaPeterson

Diamond Member
Apr 24, 2001
5,652
42
91
Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
Unified Europe---NEVER!!
I beg to differ...
I took special courses in European integration, I worked for the European Commission in Brussels... those people realy plan for the long term, and despite the amount of bureaucracy, they are aware that the future of the continent is at stake.
 

Forsythe

Platinum Member
May 2, 2004
2,825
0
0
Originally posted by: Aimster
Originally posted by: BouZouki
Romania is no where near the proper economic condition to join the EU however their 20 million will be easier to absorb than Turkey's 60-70 million.

Turkey needs to start to accept the Armenian and Pontian Genocide and also get there 48,000 troops the hell out of Cyprus.

There 32 year illigal occupation of Northen Cyprus won't help them seeing the entire island of Cyprus is a full EU member.

Maybe then they can start talking about joining up.

Turkey may have some nice cities in the western part but a high percentage is still 3rd world.

Mexico City also has skyscappers like Istanbul but it doesn't mean Mexico is doing well.
Turkey not joining the EU has nothing to do with their recognition of genocide IMO. That is just an excuse.

It has to do with the fact that Turkey is a Muslim country. Europe is afraid of being dominated by Muslims.

Turkey looks just like the U.S. Beautiful populated cities, with the outskirts looking rather plain. Turkey is def. not an economic leader, but their GDP is growing at 6-8% and this is without significant oil revenue.
I believe Turkey has significantly cut back on its debts as well.
Still they will never be part of the EU for the fact that they are a Muslim nation.
That's not entirely true. I know some people are against them joining because they're muslim. But far from all.
Turkey still has substantiel problems, the least of which is about it being a muslim country (which i personally would consider a boon).
From being very positive for them to join, i've now changed to a bit doubtfull.
 

Forsythe

Platinum Member
May 2, 2004
2,825
0
0
Originally posted by: AnitaPeterson
Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
Unified Europe---NEVER!!
I beg to differ...
I took special courses in European integration, I worked for the European Commission in Brussels... those people realy plan for the long term, and despite the amount of bureaucracy, they are aware that the future of the continent is at stake.
The meaning of the EU is not to make a united states of europa. In fact, i severely doubt we'll stop expanding when we've got all of europe in, well, the european union.
It's more like a gathering of countries.
 

Forsythe

Platinum Member
May 2, 2004
2,825
0
0
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Props to the EU for trying, but too often they sound like a bunch of bickering school kids. Although that?s much improved over the last two thousand years so maybe if they have more time to work at this it?ll come through for them.
I totaly agree, and they are.

You have to remember, these are countries that have very different government.
And they are the same as any other government.
 

Forsythe

Platinum Member
May 2, 2004
2,825
0
0
Just heard on the radio. A new very critical report from the european union, about turkey, has led to, maybe, a final deadline of the 8th of november, for Turkey to acknowledge Cyprus. Otherwise the negotiations will most likely stop.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
67,830
2,928
126
Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
Originally posted by: Aimster
Originally posted by: BouZouki
Romania is no where near the proper economic condition to join the EU however their 20 million will be easier to absorb than Turkey's 60-70 million.

Turkey needs to start to accept the Armenian and Pontian Genocide and also get there 48,000 troops the hell out of Cyprus.

There 32 year illigal occupation of Northen Cyprus won't help them seeing the entire island of Cyprus is a full EU member.

Maybe then they can start talking about joining up.

Turkey may have some nice cities in the western part but a high percentage is still 3rd world.

Mexico City also has skyscappers like Istanbul but it doesn't mean Mexico is doing well.
Turkey not joining the EU has nothing to do with their recognition of genocide IMO. That is just an excuse.

It has to do with the fact that Turkey is a Muslim country. Europe is afraid of being dominated by Muslims.

Turkey looks just like the U.S. Beautiful populated cities, with the outskirts looking rather plain. Turkey is def. not an economic leader, but their GDP is growing at 6-8% and this is without significant oil revenue.
I believe Turkey has significantly cut back on its debts as well.
Still they will never be part of the EU for the fact that they are a Muslim nation.
Thats very true!!!

While on the subjwct of a "unified" Europe.....
On paper someday maybe....
In reality it will never happen....
Nobody trusts the Germans and likewise the Germans only care about themselves they actually hate everybody else...

When I lived in Europe I did Translation from Polish to German...and Czech and even some Russian...
The thing that amazed me most was the way the German`s would treat these other countries as if they needed what the German`s had to offer more than the Germans needing them....

Unified Europe---NERVER!!
Why be amazed about that? It is the largest Economy in Europe and Top 3 in the World. It is the largest Exporter of Goods in the World. That statement is factually correct.
 

imported_Shivetya

Platinum Member
Jul 7, 2005
2,978
0
0
Unified and hobbled.

the problem is that the government behind this setup seems very disinterested in the actual people that make the union and instead more interested in itself and giving itself more authority over the people of the union.

In other words, this ain't about helping out the majority, its about minimizing that majority's future impact on the minority of government higher ups and the wealthy elite.

 

Forsythe

Platinum Member
May 2, 2004
2,825
0
0
Originally posted by: Shivetya
Unified and hobbled.

the problem is that the government behind this setup seems very disinterested in the actual people that make the union and instead more interested in itself and giving itself more authority over the people of the union.

In other words, this ain't about helping out the majority, its about minimizing that majority's future impact on the minority of government higher ups and the wealthy elite.
I don't agree with you.
I don't see any reason to go for that apart from the usual anti government line.
 

fstime

Diamond Member
Jan 18, 2004
4,387
5
81
Originally posted by: Aimster
Originally posted by: BouZouki
Romania is no where near the proper economic condition to join the EU however their 20 million will be easier to absorb than Turkey's 60-70 million.

Turkey needs to start to accept the Armenian and Pontian Genocide and also get there 48,000 troops the hell out of Cyprus.

There 32 year illigal occupation of Northen Cyprus won't help them seeing the entire island of Cyprus is a full EU member.

Maybe then they can start talking about joining up.

Turkey may have some nice cities in the western part but a high percentage is still 3rd world.

Mexico City also has skyscappers like Istanbul but it doesn't mean Mexico is doing well.
Turkey not joining the EU has nothing to do with their recognition of genocide IMO. That is just an excuse.

It has to do with the fact that Turkey is a Muslim country. Europe is afraid of being dominated by Muslims.

Turkey looks just like the U.S. Beautiful populated cities, with the outskirts looking rather plain. Turkey is def. not an economic leader, but their GDP is growing at 6-8% and this is without significant oil revenue.
I believe Turkey has significantly cut back on its debts as well.
Still they will never be part of the EU for the fact that they are a Muslim nation.

I strongly disagree, although the genocide is not the major issue, you failed to recognize that Turkey having 48,000 troops ILLEGALY in North Cyprus for 32 years and establishing a pupet state which is only recognized by Turkey will never gain them EU entry simply because the island of Cyprus is a full EU member as a whole.

Turkey will not get Cyprus' vote as long as the illegal occupation exists.

They can provide all the propaganda they'd like about their invasion but we all know it is wrong and it has been proven illegal several times.

Turkey as a country is doing average however many problems still exist such as the kurdish problem and the militarys strong influence in the goverment.

 

Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,179
0
76
Originally posted by: BouZouki
Originally posted by: Aimster
Originally posted by: BouZouki
Romania is no where near the proper economic condition to join the EU however their 20 million will be easier to absorb than Turkey's 60-70 million.

Turkey needs to start to accept the Armenian and Pontian Genocide and also get there 48,000 troops the hell out of Cyprus.

There 32 year illigal occupation of Northen Cyprus won't help them seeing the entire island of Cyprus is a full EU member.

Maybe then they can start talking about joining up.

Turkey may have some nice cities in the western part but a high percentage is still 3rd world.

Mexico City also has skyscappers like Istanbul but it doesn't mean Mexico is doing well.
Turkey not joining the EU has nothing to do with their recognition of genocide IMO. That is just an excuse.

It has to do with the fact that Turkey is a Muslim country. Europe is afraid of being dominated by Muslims.

Turkey looks just like the U.S. Beautiful populated cities, with the outskirts looking rather plain. Turkey is def. not an economic leader, but their GDP is growing at 6-8% and this is without significant oil revenue.
I believe Turkey has significantly cut back on its debts as well.
Still they will never be part of the EU for the fact that they are a Muslim nation.

I strongly disagree, although the genocide is not the major issue, you failed to recognize that Turkey having 48,000 troops ILLEGALY in North Cyprus for 32 years and establishing a pupet state which is only recognized by Turkey will never gain them EU entry simply because the island of Cyprus is a full EU member as a whole.

Turkey will not get Cyprus' vote as long as the illegal occupation exists.

They can provide all the propaganda they'd like about their invasion but we all know it is wrong and it has been proven illegal several times.

Turkey as a country is doing average however many problems still exist such as the kurdish problem and the militarys strong influence in the goverment.
I agree. While xenophones certainly do use the fact that they're muslim, it is not of any practical consequence to their membership - after all they're more rabidly secular than even France.

The real reasons are more along the lines of:
- the Cyprus problem
- the kurdish problem
- economic instability: 3 economic meltdowns over the last 12 years.
- political instability: coups are pretty frequent, last one being in 1997.
- it is poor: a small poor country is much easier to take in than a huge poor one.
- political maturity: As the single largest potential memeber of the EU, Turkey would be able to weild quite a bit of power, thus you can excuse poeple if they mistrust politicians that would idealy like to criminalize adultery (link)

My view is, Turkey will not be able to carry out the reforms needed, simply because it would be too hard for them and they will not want to submit to the EU and be told what to do for years and years on end...

edit:
And there is more of course, like restrictive free speech laws... link
Orhan Pamuk, one of Turkey's most acclaimed writers, is facing up to three years in prison. His offense, according to the state prosecutor? "Public denigrating of Turkish identity." Specifically, Mr. Pamuk told a Swiss newspaper in February that certain topics were off-limits for discussion in Turkey -- citing the massacre of Armenians in 1915 and the more recent conflicts between Turkish security forces and Kurdish separatists. "Thirty-thousand Kurds were killed here, 1 million Armenians as well. And almost no one talks about it," he said. "Therefore, I do."

As mild as these comments sound to American ears, they touched off a firestorm in Turkey, where the government line is that the Armenian deaths were the consequence of war, not genocide, and public discussion of the issue is hazardous. The uproar over Mr. Pamuk's remarks, which included death threats and burnings of his books, culminated with the filing of the criminal case under Article 301/1 of the Turkish Penal Code, which applies criminal penalties to "a person who explicitly insults being a Turk, the Republic or Turkish Grand National Assembly." Under Turkish law, Mr. Pamuk isn't even permitted to comment on the charges before his case is heard in December.
I think before Americans or Canadians critisize the EU over Turkey, they should ask themselves if they'd be ok with Turkey joining their federation as a full state/province and judge based on that.
 

Art Vandelay

Senior member
Jul 30, 2006
642
0
0
If it had to be divided up, it would be:

90% because Turkey is a Muslim country.
10% because of all other reasons.

I lived in Germany, France and Austria... most severe cases were in Austria. Never seen an Austrian not look down on Turks as monsters (including women and children), the least.
 

fornax

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
6,867
0
76
Originally posted by: Martin

I agree. While xenophones certainly do use the fact that they're muslim, it is not of any practical consequence to their membership - after all they're more rabidly secular than even France.

The real reasons are more along the lines of:
- the Cyprus problem
- the kurdish problem
- economic instability: 3 economic meltdowns over the last 12 years.
- political instability: coups are pretty frequent, last one being in 1997.
- it is poor: a small poor country is much easier to take in than a huge poor one.
- political maturity: As the single largest potential memeber of the EU, Turkey would be able to weild quite a bit of power, thus you can excuse poeple if they mistrust politicians that would idealy like to criminalize adultery (link)

My view is, Turkey will not be able to carry out the reforms needed, simply because it would be too hard for them and they will not want to submit to the EU and be told what to do for years and years on end...

edit:
And there is more of course, like restrictive free speech laws... link
Orhan Pamuk, one of Turkey's most acclaimed writers, is facing up to three years in prison. His offense, according to the state prosecutor? "Public denigrating of Turkish identity." Specifically, Mr. Pamuk told a Swiss newspaper in February that certain topics were off-limits for discussion in Turkey -- citing the massacre of Armenians in 1915 and the more recent conflicts between Turkish security forces and Kurdish separatists. "Thirty-thousand Kurds were killed here, 1 million Armenians as well. And almost no one talks about it," he said. "Therefore, I do."

As mild as these comments sound to American ears, they touched off a firestorm in Turkey, where the government line is that the Armenian deaths were the consequence of war, not genocide, and public discussion of the issue is hazardous. The uproar over Mr. Pamuk's remarks, which included death threats and burnings of his books, culminated with the filing of the criminal case under Article 301/1 of the Turkish Penal Code, which applies criminal penalties to "a person who explicitly insults being a Turk, the Republic or Turkish Grand National Assembly." Under Turkish law, Mr. Pamuk isn't even permitted to comment on the charges before his case is heard in December.
I think before Americans or Canadians critisize the EU over Turkey, they should ask themselves if they'd be ok with Turkey joining their federation as a full state/province and judge based on that.
Very good analysis. Despite fairly rapid and robust economic growth, Turkey is still a very poor country, except for a few urbanized centers and tourist areas. Besides, let's face it: Turkey is NOT a European country. That's not a putdown, just a fact. Bulgaria and Romania ARE European countries, artificially torn and isolated from Europe's culture first by the Turks (in particular Bulgaria), and then by the Soviets. Their acceptance to the EU is a natural return. Turkey has never been part of Europe except as a short-lived conquerer, their culture and way of life are different. Not bad, but different.
 

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