Roger Cohen and the real Jewish debate

[EagleKeeper]

Its kinda odd for Whippersnapper to assert, "Perhaps it wouldn't be as large of a crisis if the Palestinians stopped investing their time and money on mortars, suicide belts, and jihad and instead directed those energies towards peacefully improving their situation?"[]

Because we are now in the midst of a recent Palestinian split, while the West Bank Palestinians under Fatah try non violence, and the Palestinians in Gaza under Hamas still have not renounced violence, neither tactic works as Israel still takes and takes,

In terms of any Palestinian economy, Israel has a total economic embargo on Gaza and a crippling embargo enforce in the West Bank.

Just some facts to consider WhipperSnapper, after which you can resume consuming Israeli propaganda without bothering your brain with the bother of mind numbing thought or logic.

Which is why you lost me when you next asserted "I still think."

Because thinking involves testing reality, and your assertion does not meet the reality sniff test.

Which Palestinian group represents the Palestinian people?

Treating Gaza like the West Bank has hurt Israel and not benefited anyone.
The Palestinian leadership there loudly proclaimed they were against the previous round of peace talks.

Treating West Bank, like Gaza just encourages the conflict attitude. The purpose is to remove the conflict.

Are the Palestinians to be treated as one or two groups?
Treat them as two groups would work best - neither should then expect what the other gets.

But the Palestinians in the West Bank need to think for themselves and not go running to the PA and the Arabs for making decisions for them. They need to take a look at themselves and ask what they really want and what they are being told to get.

Separate out and work with Israel to accomplish something. Sitting back in the corner complaining that the ice cream cone is a double dip rather than a triple dip only allows the ice cream cone to melt into a single dip.

 

[Pocatello]

Which Palestinian group represents the Palestinian people?

Treating Gaza like the West Bank has hurt Israel and not benefited anyone.
The Palestinian leadership there loudly proclaimed they were against the previous round of peace talks.

Treating West Bank, like Gaza just encourages the conflict attitude. The purpose is to remove the conflict.

Are the Palestinians to be treated as one or two groups?
Treat them as two groups would work best - neither should then expect what the other gets.

But the Palestinians in the West Bank need to think for themselves and not go running to the PA and the Arabs for making decisions for them. They need to take a look at themselves and ask what they really want and what they are being told to get.

Separate out and work with Israel to accomplish something. Sitting back in the corner complaining that the ice cream cone is a double dip rather than a triple dip only allows the ice cream cone to melt into a single dip.

I'm very curious about this also. There are many countries in the world want to support a Palestinian state, but the Palestinian people need to stop fighting and killing each other. Hamas and the PLA can't stand each other. Brazil is going to recognized a Palestinian state, but who will represent the Palestinian government?

 

[EagleKeeper]

On the original subject

Jews that have not been to Israel and experienced hostility/attacks from Arabs/Mulsims will have a jaded eye of Israel. Everyone wants to go back to their old hometown and see things as an adult that they remember as a kid.

Progress and people change.

What the non-traveled Jews remember are the pics/stories from Israel after '68 when Israel was stong enough to repel the hostilities.

By Israel able to effectively repel, the damage that the world sees is different that what the Israel residents live under.

The hometown is not the same anymore for most.

 

[EagleKeeper]

I'm very curious about this also. There are many countries in the world want to support a Palestinian state, but the Palestinian people need to stop fighting and killing each other. Hamas and the PLA can't stand each other. Brazil is going to recognized a Palestinian state, but who will represent the Palestinian government?

Courtesy of WikiLeaks, is the evidence that Israel is accepting the issue of a Palestinian state.

As the world has seen and you pointed out; which state and who represents it. The world is not going to want to have a Palestinian state based around the Hamas/Hezbollah policies.

 

[Lemon law]

Courtesy of WikiLeaks, is the evidence that Israel is accepting the issue of a Palestinian state.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What incredible drivel Common Courtesy, another I will believe it when I see it moment.
Or like a drunk promising to go on the wagon next week, its just that next week never comes.

I have no doubt that most people in Israel can get their arms around the concept of why they have to give up control of land they can never own, but just like Common Courtesy who invents all kinds of nonsense deflections rather than directly address certain unpleasant facts, but Israel always finds reasons to retain control. Not good reasons, not logical reasons, but still reasons that boil down to we don't want to give it back.

Finally the larger world will have to realize its going to take an economic embargo of Israel to get Israel out, just like in that other Apartheid State of South Africa.

Israel, after 43 years of inventing excuses not to give back what they stole is getting pretty good at the excuses game as Israel paints itself ever further into a corner. Whoopee, the Israeli propaganda smokescreen machine even fools wikileaks. As Israel says yes we will give it back, as other parts of the fog machine say no Israel will not, yes no yes no yes no yes no.......................................................

And finally the only thing rationally to do is quit watching the circus side show, and notice that not only Is Israel not giving the land back, Israelis are building and building on land they can never own.

It kind of gives us the definitive answers to that question unless you can convince us to not believe my own lying eyes.

Actions or should I say Israeli inaction speaks far louder than words.

 

[Lemon law]

It's nice to know that the Jews in the U.S and in Israel are allowed to openly disagreed with each other, even with their own government. What would happen to a Palestinian in Hamas controlled area who openly disagrees with Hamas policy?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another person who quite clearly did not reads the Roger Cohen link. As an American Jew in Israel carried a picket sign questioning if Israeli settler parties were really Zionists, and soon got the snot beat out of him by an Israeli Jewish mob crying you are not a Jew. Or we can remember Rachel Corrie, simply run over by an Israeli bulldozer as her reward for peaceful protest.

Thankfully the USA is tolerant of peaceful protest, but Israel is seeming populated by some of the most violent people on earth. And sadly, the most violent, piggish, and thuggish seem to have gotten control of the Israeli reins of power.

And then the USA sucks into another Israeli propaganda machine myth, only a small fraction of Palestinians are terrorists, maybe 1 or 2%, yet if one Palestinian terrorists
does anything violent its the collective fault of all the Palestinian people, yet when Israelis act in equally thuggish ways and even commit war crimes, its the actions of a few isolated individuals.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Where are the Palestinian actions and the world embargo that you keep on predicting.

The world has done nothing to Israel in terms of support (since incpetion) or retaliation for the "abuses/violations" to the Palestinians.

Over the past 40 years, one Gaza embargo breakage attempt that did not break Israel. Bad publicity for a month and the more evidence trickled out to weaken the outrage.
No additional world talk besides you over an embargo of Israel.
No additional world actions on forcing a weaking of control over West Bank/Gaza.

The Palestinians have walked away from the table and not made any attempt/overture to resume talks. They use the construction as an excuse to see how much more leverage Israel will hand over. Forget it. The biggest champion for the PAlestinians has said to hell with it.

Now it is up to the two parties themselves to get it resolved. If the Palestinians wont show up; then how can they complain.

They did not show for 8 months when there was a freeze.
I do not expect them to show up on their own now.
The world is not going to do anything.
Israel will keep expanding and the Palestinians will generate hot air but continue with the status quo. To reject the status quo will require responsibility - that is not in their nature as a political group

 

[EagleKeeper]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another person who quite clearly did not reads the Roger Cohen link. As an American Jew in Israel carried a picket sign questioning if Israeli settler parties were really Zionists, and soon got the snot beat out of him by an Israeli Jewish mob crying you are not a Jew. Or we can remember Rachel Corrie, simply run over by an Israeli bulldozer as her reward for peaceful protest.

Thankfully the USA is tolerant of peaceful protest, but Israel is seeming populated by some of the most violent people on earth. And sadly, the most violent, piggish, and thuggish seem to have gotten control of the Israeli reins of power.

And then the USA sucks into another Israeli propaganda machine myth, only a small fraction of Palestinians are terrorists, maybe 1 or 2%, yet if one Palestinian terrorists
does anything violent its the collective fault of all the Palestinian people, yet when Israelis act in equally thuggish ways and even commit war crimes, its the actions of a few isolated individuals.

The Palestinians have not renounced the use of terror and publicly stated the acceptance of Israel.

Their leadership (elected by the way - very democratic) encourages attacks on Israel.

The Palestinian leadership does not attempt to stop those that plan attacks.

While the trouble makers may be only 3%, it is the acceptance of those that becomes an issue.

Israel can at least control/remove it's trouble makers by force as needed (Gaza and some West Bank settlements).

Peace protesters want Israel to hand over the keys. They believe what they want, ignoring the actions of the real world. The Palestinians are not interested in peace and the protesters choose to ignore it.

 

[iGas]

The Palestinians have not renounced the use of terror and publicly stated the acceptance of Israel.

Their leadership (elected by the way - very democratic) encourages attacks on Israel.

The Palestinian leadership does not attempt to stop those that plan attacks.

While the trouble makers may be only 3%, it is the acceptance of those that becomes an issue.

Israel can at least control/remove it's trouble makers by force as needed (Gaza and some West Bank settlements).

Peace protesters want Israel to hand over the keys. They believe what they want, ignoring the actions of the real world. The Palestinians are not interested in peace and the protesters choose to ignore it.

It could be that they are not planning to stop the attack on Israe. However what kind of anger would you be in if your neighbors keep on stealing your home & land, and killing hundreds/thousands of your friends and family because some nutjob killed or irritates an Israelis?

It would good if the right wing Jews and the nutjob Palestinian to wear each other shoes for a day, because i'm sure that they would realize that peace & freedom is above all. Unless you guys enjoys killing each others, then it is pointless for Jew supporters and Palestinian supporters spouts their hate/ignorance/propagandas because it is not going to solve anything.