Rock Climbing, Lifting, and Running

[Gamingphreek]

Hey Guys,

So now that I am settled into my new apartment (Graduated last May) I finally bought a membership to my local climbing gym. I do bouldering, top roping, and sport (lead) climbing.

Additionally, I consider myself an experienced lifter who knows how much to lift.

Finally, I ran extensively late high school and my first 2 years of college until I was sidelined by injuries. I recently got a new inhaler prescription and I think my knees are doing very well (I was able to run 2 miles without much problem a few days ago).

My question is, how do I integrate all of the following to provide the best results.

Rock climbing is a major hobby in my life - something that I want to continue to get better at. I plan on going to the gym every day on my way back from work. With this in mind, how should I lift and run without hurting my body?

Thanks,
-Kevin

 

[GoSharks]

Rock climbing is a major hobby in my life - something that I want to continue to get better at. I plan on going to the gym every day on my way back from work. With this in mind, how should I lift and run without hurting my body?

Anything but the bolded (assuming that you mean that you will be climbing 5 days a week). Average it out to every other day, MAX.

Is climbing your top priority? Lifting is not going to be the best way to help your climbing; it is better to just take any lifting time and put it into climbing.

Running will help with longer sport routes, but that's about it.

 

[Gamingphreek]

Anything but the bolded (assuming that you mean that you will be climbing 5 days a week). Average it out to every other day, MAX.

Is climbing your top priority? Lifting is not going to be the best way to help your climbing; it is better to just take any lifting time and put it into climbing.

Running will help with longer sport routes, but that's about it.

Climbing is my top priority in this instance. Baseball season is over so I don't need to worry about arm strength or anything right now.

Well I don't plan on doing a bulking program or anything. However, I was thinking that some high rep low resistance lifts might help a little bit.

-Kevin

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Climbing is my top priority in this instance. Baseball season is over so I don't need to worry about arm strength or anything right now.

Well I don't plan on doing a bulking program or anything. However, I was thinking that some high rep low resistance lifts might help a little bit.

-Kevin

Why would high rep, low resistance stuff help you with climbing - something that requires tremendous upper body strength? Things like fingertip pullups (on stairs or something), weighted pullups, explosive pullups, grip training, and lots and lots of stretching will be very beneficial for your climbing. Keep in mind, it's difficult to get bulky if you're not trying.

 

[GoSharks]

Things like fingertip pullups (on stairs or something), weighted pullups, explosive pullups, grip training, and lots and lots of stretching will be very beneficial for your climbing

All that is a waste of time since you actually have access to a climbing gym. If you goal is to get better at climbing, just climb.

When you can actually climb, lifting for climbing is pointless.

Running/cardio IMO is fine and can be something to do on your days off from climbing.

Me on a V10
http://photo.rgb63.com/2010/Hueco/_IGP1474.jpg.php

 

[Gamingphreek]

Why would high rep, low resistance stuff help you with climbing - something that requires tremendous upper body strength? Things like fingertip pullups (on stairs or something), weighted pullups, explosive pullups, grip training, and lots and lots of stretching will be very beneficial for your climbing. Keep in mind, it's difficult to get bulky if you're not trying.

Ah you must have never climbed before Climbing should not require intense upper body strength (Though it helps). Your arms should be used in the same way as when you climb a ladder.

My thinking was that bicep curls, forarm curls, and skull-crushers should work out my arms (Help with lock offs and pulling through moves). I would like to bulk up my chest (pectorals), but that really has no climbing motive behind it.

-Kevin

 

[Koing]

Most people are limited by FINGER TIP STRENGTH/ STAMINA/ crimping/ pinching strength on the harder climbs...if climbing is your priority I'd work the hell out of your climbing stamina.

Wrap a towel on a pull upl, grab towel and do pull ups. VERY good exercise. As you get better use less fingers to grab the towel

The amount of food you will eat will have a bigger impact on the amount of weight you'll gain. Do legs once a week to keep your body in check.

Koing

 

[Koing]

Ah you must have never climbed before Climbing should not require intense upper body strength (Though it helps). Your arms should be used in the same way as when you climb a ladder.

My thinking was that bicep curls, forarm curls, and skull-crushers should work out my arms (Help with lock offs and pulling through moves). I would like to bulk up my chest (pectorals), but that really has no climbing motive behind it.

-Kevin

At the easy/ beginner levels. Most of the harder climbs are all upperbody, power moves with small as f0ck holds!

Forget bicep curls and forearm curls and skull crushers. If climbing is your focus hammer pull ups, a variety,

You can do this one

Pull up to the middle, now transition to your left, back to the middle, pause, go to your right

OR

Pull up to your left wrist, back down, now to your right wrist : you can have a wide grip and vary your grip on this one

OR

Mix up a combo,

Pull up over the bar, to your right, lower to central mid, now go back up and move to your left wrist, and back down to your hang position. Mix up the paths. It'll be fun and more of a climbing motion.

Koing

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Ah you must have never climbed before Climbing should not require intense upper body strength (Though it helps). Your arms should be used in the same way as when you climb a ladder.

My thinking was that bicep curls, forarm curls, and skull-crushers should work out my arms (Help with lock offs and pulling through moves). I would like to bulk up my chest (pectorals), but that really has no climbing motive behind it.

-Kevin

Right, but if you're training in a gym for climbing (rather than climbing, which is the best sport-specific workout), these exercises will definitely help you. Isolation exercises like bicep curls, forearm curls, and skull crushers are pointless. They will not help your climbing ability since they are use very little while climbing (except your forearms, but forearm curls do not transfer well to real strength). Strengthening your back and arms at the same time through difficult, coordinated pullups WILL help your upper body game. I know that climbing isn't entirely upper body, but grip and back strength are vital components of climbing. The exercises you suggest won't really work on those well because isolation exercises don't train the motor program for pulling, nor do they develop the most functional strength.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

All that is a waste of time since you actually have access to a climbing gym. If you goal is to get better at climbing, just climb.

When you can actually climb, lifting for climbing is pointless.

Running/cardio IMO is fine and can be something to do on your days off from climbing.

Me on a V10
http://photo.rgb63.com/2010/Hueco/_IGP1474.jpg.php

I agree entirely. He asked what he could do in a regular gym and I gave suggestions. Doing the actual skill is a much better way to develop skill and stamina for the sport.

 

[Gamingphreek]

At the easy/ beginner levels. Most of the harder climbs are all upperbody, power moves with small as f0ck holds!

Forget bicep curls and forearm curls and skull crushers. If climbing is your focus hammer pull ups, a variety,

You can do this one

Pull up to the middle, now transition to your left, back to the middle, pause, go to your right

OR

Pull up to your left wrist, back down, now to your right wrist : you can have a wide grip and vary your grip on this one

OR

Mix up a combo,

Pull up over the bar, to your right, lower to central mid, now go back up and move to your left wrist, and back down to your hang position. Mix up the paths. It'll be fun and more of a climbing motion.

Koing

That is a good point about the harder routes. However, given that your fingers don't have muscles in them (They are all tendons), I was thinking that one using one of the exercise bands, keeping my arm parallel to the ground and moving my wrist around in random shapes. Additionally, since the tendons are then affected by muscles in my arms, that is where I got the curl idea from.

Speaking of small holds, I recently climbed a route with a 1 finger mono hold on it - sucked really really bad haha.

I'll have to try that with the pull up bar. Should I try to run every other day or so still - or should I just nuke that idea?

-Kevin

 

[SociallyChallenged]

That is a good point about the harder routes. However, given that your fingers don't have muscles in them (They are all tendons), I was thinking that one using one of the exercise bands, keeping my arm parallel to the ground and moving my wrist around in random shapes. Additionally, since the tendons are then affected by muscles in my arms, that is where I got the curl idea from.

Speaking of small holds, I recently climbed a route with a 1 finger mono hold on it - sucked really really bad haha.

I'll have to try that with the pull up bar. Should I try to run every other day or so still - or should I just nuke that idea?

-Kevin

What are you smoking? You have many muscles in your hands: the palmar interossei, the dorsal interossei, the lumbricals, the thenar muscles, the hypothenar muscles, etc. You need to do pullups that strain your grip so you can improve the strength of these muscles and the muscles in your forearms (which are responsible for gripping as well). Curls are useless for these muscles since they almost exclusively utilize the biceps.

You can run, it won't hurt your performance unless you're too sore to climb.

 

[Gamingphreek]

Right, but if you're training in a gym for climbing (rather than climbing, which is the best sport-specific workout), these exercises will definitely help you. Isolation exercises like bicep curls, forearm curls, and skull crushers are pointless. They will not help your climbing ability since they are use very little while climbing (except your forearms, but forearm curls do not transfer well to real strength). Strengthening your back and arms at the same time through difficult, coordinated pullups WILL help your upper body game. I know that climbing isn't entirely upper body, but grip and back strength are vital components of climbing. The exercises you suggest won't really work on those well because isolation exercises don't train the motor program for pulling, nor do they develop the most functional strength.

Interesting... I can definitely see your point.

So it seems that the consensus opinion is to not both with running or lifting much if I am going to the climbing gym every day, correct?

-Kevin

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Interesting... I can definitely see your point.

So it seems that the consensus opinion is to not both with running or lifting much if I am going to the climbing gym every day, correct?

-Kevin

Do what you'd like to do. Have fun with it. If you can recover from your other exercises and still perform rock climbing well, then you can do whatever you want. If it starts to affect your climbing, that's when a problem may arise.

 

[Gamingphreek]

What are you smoking? You have many muscles in your hands: the palmar interossei, the dorsal interossei, the lumbricals, the thenar muscles, the hypothenar muscles, etc. You need to do pullups that strain your grip so you can improve the strength of these muscles and the muscles in your forearms (which are responsible for gripping as well). Curls are useless for these muscles since they almost exclusively utilize the biceps.

You can run, it won't hurt your performance unless you're too sore to climb.

Hmm - I read somewhere that your finger strength is from tendons and not from any muscle in them. Seems like I read it very very wrong...

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Hmm - I read somewhere that your finger strength is from tendons and not from any muscle in them. Seems like I read it very very wrong...

Well, not quite. The dominant flexors of the hand are in the forearm. However, the other muscles are very important for finger stamina and stabilization. That's why doing ledge-grip pullups on stairs (or whatever is available) and pinch-grip pullups with a sheet or towel are great. They'll work all of the muscles in the fingers and forearms, giving you the best bang for your buck.

 

[Deeko]

I had a membership to a climbing gym for awhile. I lifted as well - not because I thought it would help my climbing, though. I lifted because that's what I wanted to do. I balanced it out by 3 days climbing/3 days lifting/1 day rest. You could toss in some cardio as well if you wanted.

What's important is that you build up to it. That's a lot of physical activity. All of it is fairly different, so your body will be able to adapt to it without sufferring from serious overtraining, but start slow. Start with 2 days climbing/2 days lifting. Then add another day of climbing, and then if you're up to it, another day of lifting...but realistically, you could do without the 3rd lifting day.

All depends on what you really want to get out of it.

 

[Deeko]

Hmm - I read somewhere that your finger strength is from tendons and not from any muscle in them. Seems like I read it very very wrong...

Tendons connect muscle to bone. So your fingers are indeed directly manipulated by tendons....but there has to be a muscle somewhere pulling said tendon.

Tendon strength is different from muscle strength. When you think muscle strength, you think how strong can I hold this, how heavy can I move, etc. Tendon strength is more like the strength of a steel cable holding up a bridge. It measures how much tension it can withstand without breaking.

Tendon strength remains very important in climbing. Tendons gain strength considerably slower than muscles - when a muscle hasn't been worked terribly hard before (like the muscles that govern finger strength used in climbing), it has the capacity to improve very quickly. This means you have to be careful, as its very easy to suffer from tendon injuries when you're at the early stages of climbing when finger strength is the biggest thing holding you back, not technique. You might feel strong enough to climb that V2...but your tendons aren't.

 

[Jeffg010]

I would add finger tip push ups if you can even do them.

 

[GoSharks]

Why so much focus on climbing-related lifting techniques, as a means to get bet better at climbing? This is the wrong way to go about it.

Gamingphreek, what level are you currently climbing at, and what are your weaknesses?

So it seems that the consensus opinion is to not both with running or lifting much if I am going to the climbing gym every day, correct?

DON'T GO CLIMBING EVERY DAY. You need rest days. I seriously recommend that you average things out such that you are climbing, at MAX, every other day. I would also suggest that you do not do any upper body workouts on your off days.

Wrap a towel on a pull upl, grab towel and do pull ups. VERY good exercise. As you get better use less fingers to grab the towel

Doing pullups is useless for climbing. The number of pullups you can do has nothing to do with how well you climb.

If you are going to do anything on a pullup bar, do lockoffs at varying angles. Even then, it is better to just do lockoffs on actual climbing holds.

I would add finger tip push ups if you can even do them.

Why? Push ups are not going to directly help the OP get better at climbing.

Most people are limited by FINGER TIP STRENGTH/ STAMINA/ crimping/ pinching strength on the harder climbs...

Strength is typically not the limiting factor when trying to send a climb.

 

[Gamingphreek]

At present I'm a V2/V3 boulderer and a 5.9/5.10a climber. By this I mean I can flash most V2's and 5.9's and V3's and 5.10a's will challenge me a little.

DON'T GO CLIMBING EVERY DAY. You need rest days. I seriously recommend that you average things out such that you are climbing, at MAX, every other day. I would also suggest that you do not do any upper body workouts on your off days.

What is your reasoning for rest days above standard workout resting? I'm not new to climbing (Though I have had a month off) and have been climbing for a little over a year.

Doing pullups is useless for climbing. The number of pullups you can do has nothing to do with how well you climb.

The towel idea, in absence of a wall sounds terrific. If a persons technique is there and they don't have regular access to a wall, I feel like pull ups (Especially with a fingerboard) are the best exercise they can do.

All of these I just quoted, and the others that were listed seem like good ideas in the absence of a wall in my mind- would you agree? Of course, since I have regular access to the wall, I'm guessing I should just stick to that...

-Kevin

 

[GoSharks]

At present I'm a V2/V3 boulderer and a 5.9/5.10a climber. By this I mean I can flash most V2's and 5.9's and V3's and 5.10a's will challenge me a little.

Assuming that your gym has somewhat standard ratings, this tells me that you are generally far stronger than your technique and endurance. Please correct me if my assumption is incorrect; V0 problems are typically associated with 5.9+/10a climbing.

What is your reasoning for rest days above standard workout resting? I'm not new to climbing (Though I have had a month off) and have been climbing for a little over a year.

I am unsure as to what you mean by standard workout resting. Climbing without taking days off is a recipe for tendon/finger injury, especially for a climber that is building tendon and finger strength. Finger injuries take weeks to months to fully heal; you don't want that.

The towel idea, in absence of a wall sounds terrific. If a persons technique is there and they don't have regular access to a wall, I feel like pull ups (Especially with a fingerboard) are the best exercise they can do.

All of these I just quoted, and the others that were listed seem like good ideas in the absence of a wall in my mind- would you agree? Of course, since I have regular access to the wall, I'm guessing I should just stick to that...

If you have absolutely no access to climbing, only then I would recommend doing ANY of the activities that the other posters in this thread have mentioned. At your level, strength training is not going to help you progress very much and is not the best way to use your time. Working on your technique, especially foot placement, will pay off way more than any amount of strength training. You will be surprised at how much your technique can be much improved.

At the 5.10 level, getting stronger is not how you get better at climbing. You will naturally get stronger as your technique gets better, however, getting stronger is not going to make your technique better. In fact, your technique has a decent chance of getting worse because you can now burl your way through difficult sections instead of finding the "best" or most efficient way through.

 

[Gamingphreek]

So you pretty much hit the nail on the head. Though my technique has vastly improved, everyone says that I am a lot stronger than I need to be. In fact, the phrase I hear more than anything is, "I *know* you are strong enough to do this, but... (Fill in the blank)". Normally if I can't figure out a problem, I can muscle my way through it...

Honestly, I really need to get my finger/tendon strength back together. My open/closed crimps are doing very well, but my pinch's on jibs are suffering a bit right now. Additionally, I'm still struggling with sloper holds depending on the hold. Finally, though this is a product of me not climbing for a month, I'm reforming all the calluses on my fingers.

As for the correlation between bouldering and climbing - From what I have heard that is correct as far as outdoor is concerned. Indoor; however, a V0 is much easier than a 5.9+ in my opinion. Also, I have heard that your region of the US plays a big deal in ratings (ie: The NE US routes generally grade lower than they really are)

I am unsure as to what you mean by standard workout resting. Climbing without taking days off is a recipe for tendon/finger injury, especially for a climber that is building tendon and finger strength. Finger injuries take weeks to months to fully heal; you don't want that.

By standard resting I mean resting so your muscles heal after ripping them.

Having played baseball, I've had very recent tendonitis in both of my elbows (Sidelined me from climbing for weeks). That combined with the fact that I had Lime Disease when I was younger (Causes chronic joint pain) it is probably a good idea for me to be more careful.

At any rate, so taking Saturday and Sunday off every week is not spread out enough of a break?

-Kevin

 

[GoSharks]

As for the correlation between bouldering and climbing - From what I have heard that is correct as far as outdoor is concerned. Indoor; however, a V0 is much easier than a 5.9+ in my opinion. Also, I have heard that your region of the US plays a big deal in ratings (ie: The NE US routes generally grade lower than they really are)

I have found that gym ratings vary across the country. For example, I've found that a V7 at Earth Treks in MD can be equivalent to a harder V5 at Planet Granite in CA. V0's are about 5.9+ at Planet Granite.

For outdoor sport routes across the country, I've found that ratings are in pretty much in line with one another.

At any rate, so taking Saturday and Sunday off every week is not spread out enough of a break?

I would definitely not recommend it. At most, I would do two consecutive days on (climbing) before a day off. This is for gym climbing/training. Obviously if you are on a climbing trip, all bets are off.

 

[brikis98]

If you have absolutely no access to climbing, only then I would recommend doing ANY of the activities that the other posters in this thread have mentioned. At your level, strength training is not going to help you progress very much and is not the best way to use your time. Working on your technique, especially foot placement, will pay off way more than any amount of strength training. You will be surprised at how much your technique can be much improved.

I work out at a climbing gym and many many good climbers there would completely disagree with you. That is, like every single sport, the main way you get better at the sport is by doing it a lot. Obviously doing lots of climbing is the best way to become a better climber, just like playing lots of football makes you a better football player, playing lots of hockey makes you a better hockey player and so on. However, to say that all other training is not worth his time is a bunch of rubbish. Yes, technique is almost always the primary need in a sport, but you would also benefit enormously from being stronger, having more power, more endurance, better agility and so on. This is why regardless of sport, virtually all athletes do cross training. You can only climb so many hours a day and days per week (especially if you are limited by the time it takes tendons to adapt), so rest of the time can be well spent by improving all aspects of fitness. Many climbers at my gym do Crossfit precisely because it makes them better climbers. It in no way is a substitute for the hours they have to spend on the wall, but all else being equal, the more fit athlete is always the better athlete.