Risky to update BIOS with potentially faulty RAM

xxTurbonium

Member
Oct 8, 2006
167
0
0
Let's say there is the possibility of your system having faulty RAM. Would it be risky to download and install a BIOS update?

EDIT: Reason I ask is my RAM might be faulty, but I just want to check if it's temperature dependent, and the latest BIOS for my system has really handy temperature control features that would make that job way easier. I won't bother though if there is any risk of BIOS corruption.
 

xxTurbonium

Member
Oct 8, 2006
167
0
0
Memtest did LOTS of passes with 0 errors.

Same thing with Windows Memory Diagnostics Utility.

So basically, I ran 2 of the most reputable memory tests and both drew false negatives.

Then, I ran this: http://hcidesign.com/memtest/

...and got TONNES of errors. Weird, eh?

But that's not even the point. I just want to see if it's temperature dependent, out of curiosity.
 

TheKub

Golden Member
Oct 2, 2001
1,756
1
0
If memtest gave you the green light I'd say go for it, I'm reluctant to believe the results of ANY memory test ran under a windows environment. Yes if you have faulty memory it could effect the flash but really the amount of memory in use during the flash is going to be exceptionally small, and only if the faulty sections of the memory are in that window will you have a problem.

 

xxTurbonium

Member
Oct 8, 2006
167
0
0
Originally posted by: TheKub
I'm reluctant to believe the results of ANY memory test ran under a windows environment.
Yea I know, it's weird.

My system has a LOT of inconsistency issues though. It's honestly either the RAM or chipset/mobo itself. I'm gonna have to send it in for either way.

Thnx.
 

robisbell

Banned
Oct 27, 2007
3,621
0
0
like they said, if Memtest86+ was run and it ran for 6 hours and no errors, then the ram is good and so is the system. what makes you think there's a problem with either?
 

TheKub

Golden Member
Oct 2, 2001
1,756
1
0
Originally posted by: databird

My system has a LOT of inconsistency issues though. It's honestly either the RAM or chipset/mobo itself.

In my experience hardware issues are to blame in 10%-15% at most. I always point the finger at software until its ruled out. What problems are you having?
 

TheKub

Golden Member
Oct 2, 2001
1,756
1
0
I would focus on your main internal hard drive given the information on the threads provided. When you were testing internal to internal, external to external, etc the data is always extracted to a temp directory on the C drive (unless if there was some config change) and then moved to the designated folder.

Dell should have some diagnostic software that can be run on the hard drive (NOT SCANDISK) to determine if its healthy, though I would strongly recommend that you run the hard drive manufacturers diags.

Also, it may be helpful for you to export your application and system event logs for us to look at.
 

xxTurbonium

Member
Oct 8, 2006
167
0
0
Originally posted by: TheKub
Dell should have some diagnostic software that can be run on the hard drive (NOT SCANDISK) to determine if its healthy, though I would strongly recommend that you run the hard drive manufacturers diags.
Toshiba has no diagnostics to my knowledge.
 

robisbell

Banned
Oct 27, 2007
3,621
0
0
toshiba has a diagnostic toolset, hard to find it was erased from the HDD, and the cd is long gone. those links you posted about rar issues, never had a rar issue be caused by hardware, usually the way the rar was created or bad download.

1. did you run memtest86+ for at least 6 hours without interruption?
a. if so, were there any errors?
2. did you run any non-windows based system tester?
b. what were those results and what program was used?
 

xxTurbonium

Member
Oct 8, 2006
167
0
0
I already ruled out RAR files being the issue. It happens at random with any RAR files, and CAB files, etc. File X will fail to extract one moment, and not the next.

Event Viewer shows about 17 Ntfs errors over the past month.

Here are minidump reports (dumpchk.exe) from the last 8 BSODs (last 24 hours):

Probably caused by : win32k.sys ( win32k!hfontCreate+99 )
Probably caused by : win32k.sys ( win32k!xxxRealDefWindowProc+de )
Probably caused by : win32k.sys ( win32k!HANDLELOCK::vLockHandle+84 )
Probably caused by : Ntfs.sys ( Ntfs!NtfsPagingFileIo+138 )
Probably caused by : ntkrnlpa.exe ( nt+ed1c3 )
Probably caused by : ntkrnlpa.exe ( nt+cd163 )
Probably caused by : ntkrnlpa.exe ( nt+8ff99 )
Probably caused by : win32k.sys ( win32k!xxxRealDefWindowProc+de )

Memtest86+
30 passes
no errors

Memory Diagnostics Tool
9 Extended passes
no errors

Dell Diagnostics (pre-boot)
pass

System info:

Model: Vostro 1400
Mainboard : Dell 0TT347
Chipset : Intel GM965
Processor : Intel Core 2 Duo Mobile T5470 @ 1600 MHz
Physical Memory : 2048 MB (2 x 1024 DDR2-SDRAM )
Video Card : Mobile Intel® 965 Express Chipset Family
Hard Disk : TOSHIBA (160 GB) MK1637GSX
DVD-Rom Drive : PBDS DVD+-RW DS-8W1P ATA Device
Monitor Type : GR619141WD - 14 inches
Network Card : Broadcom Corp NetLink BCM5906M Fast Ethernet
Network Card : Intel Corporation Wireless WiFi Link 4965AGN
Operating System : Windows Vista ? Business Professional 6.00.6001 Service Pack 1
DirectX : Version 10.00
Windows Performance Index : 3.5

Manufacturer : Dell Inc.
Mainboard : Dell 0TT347
Bios : Dell Inc. (A08)
Chipset : Intel GM965
Physical Memory : 2048 MB DDR2-SDRAM
LPC bus : Yes
PCI Bus : Yes
Bus PCI-Express : Yes
USB Bus : Yes
SMBus/i2c Bus : Yes
Bus HyperTransport : No
Bus CardBus : No
Bus FireWire : Yes

Number of monitor : 1
Monitor Type : GR619141WD
Video Card : Mobile Intel® 965 Express Chipset Family
Current Display : 1440x900 pixels at 60 Hz in True Colors (32-bit)
OpenGL : Yes
GDI Plus : Yes
Driver: 7.15.10.1472

Processor : Intel Core 2 Duo Mobile T5470
Frequency : 1600 MHz - (current : 1596.10 MHz)
Number of Core : 2
Support : Socket P (478)
Cache L1 : 2 x 64 KB
Cache L2 : 2048 KB
Voltage VID : 1.288 V
FPU Coprocessor : Present

Port installed : Conexant HDA D330 MDC V.92 Modem
Port installed : Intel® ICH8 Family USB Universal Host Controller - 2834
Port installed : Intel® ICH8 Family USB Universal Host Controller - 2835
Port installed : Intel® ICH8 Family USB2 Enhanced Host Controller - 283A
Port installed : Intel® ICH8 Family USB Universal Host Controller - 2830
Port installed : Intel® ICH8 Family USB Universal Host Controller - 2831
Port installed : Intel® ICH8 Family USB Universal Host Controller - 2832
Port installed : Intel® ICH8 Family USB2 Enhanced Host Controller - 2836

-------------------

I've had numerous BSODs since I got this system a year ago, which I always attributed to bad drivers etc. Some days is worse than others. It's not like it's anything recent.

I'm inclined to think it is a bad mobo/chipset or some other physical fault. Further evidence in support of this is the fact that the headphone jacks have been bad since day one... they emit a popping noise at the start and end of any audio feed.

I just finished backing up and am going to call Dell tomorrow, unless you can give me some more insight?
 

SergeC

Senior member
May 7, 2005
484
0
71
This may seem simplistic....but I've seen similar problems due to a fault in the SATA cable connecting the system/swap drive to the mobo. Just throwing that out there ::shrug::
 

TheKub

Golden Member
Oct 2, 2001
1,756
1
0
Originally posted by: databird

Toshiba has no diagnostics to my knowledge.

Crap. Looks like your right. Looks like I wont ever be buying a toshiba drive.

From what I read people are having luck with the IBM\Hitachi Drive Fitness Test. Though back in the "death"star days some times I had to run the destructive test for it to kick out the error.


There is something I find funny about RMAing a motherboard because you have trouble with compressed files.

I still have the mind to say that its software, hard drive, or mem (in that order of likeliness). Id be curious to see what happens if you try to extract the files while in safe-mode.
 

xxTurbonium

Member
Oct 8, 2006
167
0
0
Originally posted by: TheKub
Originally posted by: databird

Toshiba has no diagnostics to my knowledge.

Crap. Looks like your right. Looks like I wont ever be buying a toshiba drive.

From what I read people are having luck with the IBM\Hitachi Drive Fitness Test. Though back in the "death"star days some times I had to run the destructive test for it to kick out the error.


There is something I find funny about RMAing a motherboard because you have trouble with compressed files.

I still have the mind to say that its software, hard drive, or mem (in that order of likeliness). Id be curious to see what happens if you try to extract the files while in safe-mode.
Thanks for the help so far.

Trying them in Safe Mode won't necessarily tell me anything. Let me explain with 3 examples (all in normal Windows environment).

Example 1
I had file X (self extracting). It would not extract, citing corrupt files. I tried re-downloading file X in case it was actually corrupt, but same problem - still wouldn't extract.

I tried running a full SCANDISK, and then tried extracting file X immediately after bootup - it worked.

Example 2
I had file Y (RAR - multiRAR file), and it would not extract due to being 'corrupt'. It failed at 32% extraction. Tried it a while later and it would fail at 66%. Tried it again later and it worked 100%. Tried it again later and it again failed (14%).

Example 3
Was running a virus scan (Avast! Home) and it came out clean... however, it complained that it could not scan 2 of my archive files due to being corrupt. These files were working fine a few months ago, and I haven't touched them since. I didn't try actually unRARing them right now, since I know it probably won't work, and has nothing to do with the files themselves, assuming they have not changed since they were last used.

So? What's this got to do with trying it in Safe Mode?
The theme is randomness. So if I do it in Safe Mode like 20 times, it could just be a 'fluke' that it decided to work at that moment, and give the false impression that it's a software or hardware issue. I don't want to give myself the wrong idea as to what is the source of the problem. In short, trying extractions in Safe Mode tells me nothing with certainty, due to the uncertainty of the problem itself (if it was a consistent failure to unRAR 100% of the time, then trying Safe Mode would help narrow down the problem).

Now I'm really curious... just what sort of software problem can cause something like:

- seemingly random file extraction success?
- random BSODs due to everything from win32k.sys, Ntfs.sys, ntkrnlpa.exe, etc.?
- Superfetch randomly crashing (about once a month, though curiously, this happened to me twice within an hour just now)?

I mean, is a software fault really feasible for something like this? I'm not saying it's not, but I'm wondering how things may work, technically speaking.

P.S. My statement earlier that Prime95 crashes was false - I was using a buggy version. I used the latest release and it ran for 45 minutes without issue.

Also: my motherboard is faulty anyway, given the headphone jack issue. I will have to take advantage of my warranty and replace it eventually.
 

robisbell

Banned
Oct 27, 2007
3,621
0
0
when you start up the system, did you press F12, and then choose Diagnostic Partition, if it ran, and found no errors on the system, or HDD, the full test can take a hour at least. then the issue is software related and not hardware related. I thought you had a Toshiba system not a Dell.
 

xxTurbonium

Member
Oct 8, 2006
167
0
0
Originally posted by: robisbell
when you start up the system, did you press F12, and then choose Diagnostic Partition, if it ran, and found no errors on the system, or HDD, the full test can take a hour at least. then the issue is software related and not hardware related. I thought you had a Toshiba system not a Dell.
Yes, I ran the F12 diagnostic.

I did the full initial test, including the extra RAM tests - pass.
I also did the Symptom Tree test for BSOD (almost exclusively HDD tests) - pass.

Sidenote: is it bad to constantly re-run diagnostics? I might do a final pass of the full battery of tests just to make sure it isn't the hardware. I'm afraid I might wear something out (like the hard drive). It's very warm here right now so I don't want to break something.
 

montag451

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
4,587
0
0
Have you tried those files on a different system?

I can't see that a problem extracting files from RAR would mean it is the mobo.
uninstall, reboot, reinstall your extracting software -
Try verifying if the files are ok.
Then, try a different extractor - winzip/winrar etc etc
Then, try making your own rar/zip file and extract that - see if it is ok.

 

TheKub

Golden Member
Oct 2, 2001
1,756
1
0
Originally posted by: databird
The theme is randomness. So if I do it in Safe Mode like 20 times, it could just be a 'fluke' that it decided to work at that moment, and give the false impression that it's a software or hardware issue.

I was under the impression that the failure rate of uncompressing these files were rather high (like 75%+). How often does it fail?


Originally posted by: databird
- seemingly random file extraction success?
- random BSODs due to everything from win32k.sys, Ntfs.sys, ntkrnlpa.exe, etc.?
- Superfetch randomly crashing (about once a month, though curiously, this happened to me twice within an hour just now)?

P.S. My statement earlier that Prime95 crashes was false - I was using a buggy version. I used the latest release and it ran for 45 minutes without issue.

Given the above list I say if its hardware its most likely the hard drive.

The failure of prime95 threw me off as it would have no involvement with the drive. However everything else you listed I can see how a faulty hard drive could be the cause. With multiple NTFS errors, random problems accessing files thats what I would be focusing on if it were my machine.

A successful SCANDISK or Dell diag does not mean the drive is good (though if they report a fault it is most likely bad). The best utility would be the manufacturers diagnostics which Toshiba dropped the ball on (from my brief searching). The only other hard drive utility that I've used and trust to give somewhat reliable results is SpinRite.

I'd still do the safe mode extractions if failures are quite common. If you have never been able to extract a file 5 times in a row but you can do it 10 times in safe mode there is some more info to be gathered in narrowing down the problem. I can't see how a motherboard would be causing the issues in the way you described, thought I'm not saying its impossible. If you have another reason to get it replaced great, but i'd suspect the same issues to be present after the swap (if only the mobo changed).

Ive never done mail in service with Dell but I'd assume its likely that you will not get your PC back. Id imagine they would just give you the next repaired 1400 and ship it to you. Others may be able to give you more accurate input. Regardless, backup everything thats important to you before shipping it out.




 

TheKub

Golden Member
Oct 2, 2001
1,756
1
0
Originally posted by: databird
Sidenote: is it bad to constantly re-run diagnostics?

If something fails because of running multiple diagnostics it was bad to begin with.