Rising Tensions Between Russia and Ukraine. Is War with Russia the Correct Path?
- Thread starter Mai72
- Start date
- Sep 12, 2012
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- Sep 12, 2012
- 11,578
- 1,741
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MrSquished
Lifer
- Jan 14, 2013
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GodisanAtheist
Diamond Member
- Nov 16, 2006
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There is no right answer.
Sometimes you need to avoid a war.
Sometimes you need to have a small war to prevent a bigger one later.
Sometimes that small war will spiral out of control and become a big war.
Etc.
I definitely think Russia needs a bit of a stomping to take the piss out of her a bit, tho.
I dislike the idea of grunts dying for their leaders, would be in a way nicer if we were just open to assassinating high value targets and wagging a finger at the ruling class.
Sometimes you need to avoid a war.
Sometimes you need to have a small war to prevent a bigger one later.
Sometimes that small war will spiral out of control and become a big war.
Etc.
I definitely think Russia needs a bit of a stomping to take the piss out of her a bit, tho.
I dislike the idea of grunts dying for their leaders, would be in a way nicer if we were just open to assassinating high value targets and wagging a finger at the ruling class.
Russia may try to take a little bit of Ukraine again, I very much doubt it will be a general war.
Ukrainian membership in NATO is being kicked around still.
Russia is being a major POS, but how much pressure can we put when Europe is so energy dependent on them?
Ukrainian membership in NATO is being kicked around still.
Russia is being a major POS, but how much pressure can we put when Europe is so energy dependent on them?
cytg111
Lifer
- Mar 17, 2008
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Problem with Russia, erh, Putins Russia, is that of teenager or certain breeds of dogs... They will keep pushing for more territory, metaphorically speaking, until checked. Putin will seek to topple any governing institution into something he can control, a mafia state, paying homage to its master through kompromat and fear. Ukraine? He is testing how far he can go, how much is this “mutual assured nuclear destruction” worth in terms of how much old school kinetic engagement he can get away with.
Putin is ready to push it to the limit and one foot over the line. Here is Tulsi freaking out even talking about the line.
The best solution? Topple Putin. Do to him what he did to you. Beat him at his own game.
Putin is ready to push it to the limit and one foot over the line. Here is Tulsi freaking out even talking about the line.
The best solution? Topple Putin. Do to him what he did to you. Beat him at his own game.
Commodus
Diamond Member
- Oct 9, 2004
- 9,210
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Not sure why we'd want to follow Gabbard's advice here. She was on Fox because it wanted someone to attack Biden's tough-on-Russia stance, not because her ideas necessarily carry weight.
War is obviously the last resort, but the point is to have it on the table so that Russia understands its actions have consequences. Putin has done much of what he has knowing that American and European leaders were unlikely to take serious action in response, especially Trump (who's rather fond of Russia and authoritarian governments). Biden isn't necessarily going to get Putin to back down, but he'll definitely lose if he refuses to take a firm stance.
nickqt
Diamond Member
- Jan 15, 2015
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There's close to 0 chance that the US declares war on Russia or directly fires on Russians.
We will, as a superior state, offer our vassal state weapons and logistics to defend its own sovereignty from Russian aggression.
I trust Biden and the EU to take the least stupid stance.
Had Strongman Trump still been in office, this would have been met with an 'attaboy to Putin.
We will, as a superior state, offer our vassal state weapons and logistics to defend its own sovereignty from Russian aggression.
I trust Biden and the EU to take the least stupid stance.
Had Strongman Trump still been in office, this would have been met with an 'attaboy to Putin.
Putin might go on an excursion into Ukraine. It is not likely he will attempt to conquer all of Ukraine. The country is simply too big with too many people. It would be like another Afghanistan invasion (which bankrupted the Soviets). At most he’s going to do some excursions into territory mostly populated with Russians where the anti-Ukraine insurgency mostly holds power at this time. The canal that aids Crimea with water is likely. I think Putin dreams of a day when all the pieces of the Soviet Empire are back in Russia’s control, but he lacks the mechanisms to make this possible. His messing around with countries like Georgia, Moldova and Ukraine seem largely to be about “entangling” those countries in sticky situations that makes it hard for those countries to join permanent, multilateral relationships with other spheres of influence. I'm sure Putin doesn’t so much think he can actually annex back all these countries, he’s hoping to stop them from drifting out of Russia’s orbit.
Russia is a stagnating power, and lots of stuff people think Putin is a genius on, actually hurt Russia and make Russia less able to adapt and be part of the modern world. His people take a back seat to himself. Putinism is really based around Putin, and Putin might think he’s a Frederick the Great type of figure, he genuinely doesn’t expect there exists a successor like him that can capably continue his "projects", so he feels he has to get as much done in his lifetime of power as possible.
Russia is a stagnating power, and lots of stuff people think Putin is a genius on, actually hurt Russia and make Russia less able to adapt and be part of the modern world. His people take a back seat to himself. Putinism is really based around Putin, and Putin might think he’s a Frederick the Great type of figure, he genuinely doesn’t expect there exists a successor like him that can capably continue his "projects", so he feels he has to get as much done in his lifetime of power as possible.
Plus ... With a full invasion with the goal of annexation, we’re talking Russia absorbing and holding a country of 45m indefinitely that will all but certainly actively resist in perpetuity. Modern day Russia could barely pacify Chechnya, a region of less than 2 million. Putin has never done anything even 1/10th the scale of annexing Ukraine. Chechnya is like 1/40th the size of Ukraine, and never had formal independence to begin with. It’s not trivial to annex territory permanently that doesn’t want to be annexed. it seems Crimea wanted to be part of Russia, the whole of Ukraine does not. Russia has experienced significant budgetary issues just from its more limited involvement in Ukraine so far, and has faced budgetary issues from having to prop up Crimean pensions etc that it wasn’t previously funding. A lot of economics and logistics involved in annexing a country of 40m permanently.
Puffnstuff
Lifer
- Mar 9, 2005
- 16,025
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Hell they already took Crimea from them and all they got was Johnny you're a bad bad boy. Remember when they shot down our surveillance drones that were doing force recon of their activities during that period?
An event that apparently didn't happen-
No, U.S. Drones Weren't Shot Down Over Crimea
No, U.S. Drones Weren't Shot Down Over Crimea
www.popsci.com
Wouldn't work 'cuz Trump's holdovers still buried deep in the DC bureaucratic netherworld would find out, offer it up to Trump to appease him as would an Inca high priest to their god of war, then Trump would of course get word to Putin in like manner only a lot quicker and lot more like the bitch whore he is. Trump being Trump would of course take credit for the squeal and his cult following would kneel and praise him at those gold gilded Trump prayer altars he sold to them. /s
Puffnstuff
Lifer
- Mar 9, 2005
- 16,025
- 4,795
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You cite one source against many. Nevertheless they've shot down numerous drones over the years in many hot spot around the world. We've made a commitment to Ukraine to assist them with their defense and Russia is testing the waters since they were able to get away with murder during the previous administration.An event that apparently didn't happen-
No, U.S. Drones Weren't Shot Down Over Crimea
No, U.S. Drones Weren't Shot Down Over Crimea
The solution with Russia is just to delay them and snag them up until they end up in a war with China.
China is expansionist, genocidal, and looking to "make China great again". Eventually XI will move militarily.
The resource rich Siberia is just north of China's land border. China needs oil, gas, timber, minerals, and it is all sitting right there. The current border was created in 1860, during the time known in China as "hundred years of national humiliation". To make China great again, that humiliation will need to be addressed. Be it in Taiwan, or in Siberia. Or both.
Russia's own technique of moving its citizens into Ukraine, and then moving in militarily once the demographics have changed is also reflected in Chinese migration to Siberia. What we see playing out between Russia and Ukraine is playing out between China and Russia, with the roles flipped.
In time Russia will have to turn and fight China. As long as Russia is not allowed to establish in Ukraine in the mean time, Russia will pull out on its own. It will then turn into fighting the Chinese to the last Russian, in the same manner the Chinese are fighting India to the last Pakistani. A bloody generational affair that will keep China from ever realizing its Chinese century or becoming great again...
China is expansionist, genocidal, and looking to "make China great again". Eventually XI will move militarily.
The resource rich Siberia is just north of China's land border. China needs oil, gas, timber, minerals, and it is all sitting right there. The current border was created in 1860, during the time known in China as "hundred years of national humiliation". To make China great again, that humiliation will need to be addressed. Be it in Taiwan, or in Siberia. Or both.
Russia's own technique of moving its citizens into Ukraine, and then moving in militarily once the demographics have changed is also reflected in Chinese migration to Siberia. What we see playing out between Russia and Ukraine is playing out between China and Russia, with the roles flipped.
In time Russia will have to turn and fight China. As long as Russia is not allowed to establish in Ukraine in the mean time, Russia will pull out on its own. It will then turn into fighting the Chinese to the last Russian, in the same manner the Chinese are fighting India to the last Pakistani. A bloody generational affair that will keep China from ever realizing its Chinese century or becoming great again...
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