Rioting imminent?

Page 3 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

maluckey

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2003
2,933
0
71
Originally posted by: ZeroIQ
Originally posted by: inspire
Originally posted by: ZeroIQ
Originally posted by: Drift3r
Originally posted by: ZeroIQ
Originally posted by: loki8481
Originally posted by: dainthomas
Originally posted by: loki8481
aren't Catholics the only ones who pay any attention to Mary?

Where do Protestants think Jesus came from?

I don't know any protestants :eek:

I always thought that the catholics viewed Mary as like a religious figure, whereas the protestants view her as the chick who gave birth to baby Jesus.

Pretty spot on. Protestants don't idolize her or pray to her like catholics do (I think they pray to her, right?). You can't tell me they don't idolize her, because they do.

Protestants believe she was a virgin, but she was nothing more than the mother of Christ.

She is revered as religious figure but they do not idolize her as a God as you are suggesting. No Catholic I know ( grew up Catholic myself ) ever viewed the Virgin Mary with the same regard as they view God himself. They pray to her in hopes that she hears their prays and relays them to God just like they pray to saints to do the same. Being that she is believed to hold a special place with God as the mother of God's son Jesus they believe she just might have some pull with him so to speak.

...which is idolizing. It's part of the 10 commandments.

I'm not saying they hold her as God. But the Bible talks about worshiping others. Also, praying to Mary and/or saints would suggest that God is not all powerful and cannot hear our prayers, which would go against what the Bible teaches as well.

Intercession is probably a more accurate term that non-Catholics would understand. Intercession is well-documented in the Bible.

And being that intercession is praying on behalf of someone else (only living people for protestants), that is not the right word to use. I used the right word - idolizing.

No where in the Bible does it talk about praying to Mary of any of the saints to have your prayers answered. This is a made up belief (as in not in the Bible) of the Catholics and some other religions.

I found these tidbits.....from the Bible

1. the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints (Rev. 5:8)

This shows that the saints in heaven pray for the saints on earth.

2. "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3?4).

Angels use intercession as well

3. "See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 18:10).

Says that angels watching over small children have guaranteed access to God

4. Because he is the only God-man and the Mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1?4). In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for "[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects" (Jas. 5:16).

One would assume that Protestans follow the Bible as much as other Christians no?

Threads like this only show that many people are ill-informed about their own religion, and that make misinterpretation rather easy.
 

1prophet

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
5,313
534
126
Originally posted by: maluckey
Originally posted by: ZeroIQ
Originally posted by: inspire
Originally posted by: ZeroIQ
Originally posted by: Drift3r
Originally posted by: ZeroIQ
Originally posted by: loki8481
Originally posted by: dainthomas
Originally posted by: loki8481
aren't Catholics the only ones who pay any attention to Mary?

Where do Protestants think Jesus came from?

I don't know any protestants :eek:

I always thought that the catholics viewed Mary as like a religious figure, whereas the protestants view her as the chick who gave birth to baby Jesus.

Pretty spot on. Protestants don't idolize her or pray to her like catholics do (I think they pray to her, right?). You can't tell me they don't idolize her, because they do.

Protestants believe she was a virgin, but she was nothing more than the mother of Christ.

She is revered as religious figure but they do not idolize her as a God as you are suggesting. No Catholic I know ( grew up Catholic myself ) ever viewed the Virgin Mary with the same regard as they view God himself. They pray to her in hopes that she hears their prays and relays them to God just like they pray to saints to do the same. Being that she is believed to hold a special place with God as the mother of God's son Jesus they believe she just might have some pull with him so to speak.

...which is idolizing. It's part of the 10 commandments.

I'm not saying they hold her as God. But the Bible talks about worshiping others. Also, praying to Mary and/or saints would suggest that God is not all powerful and cannot hear our prayers, which would go against what the Bible teaches as well.

Intercession is probably a more accurate term that non-Catholics would understand. Intercession is well-documented in the Bible.

And being that intercession is praying on behalf of someone else (only living people for protestants), that is not the right word to use. I used the right word - idolizing.

No where in the Bible does it talk about praying to Mary of any of the saints to have your prayers answered. This is a made up belief (as in not in the Bible) of the Catholics and some other religions.

I found these tidbits.....from the Bible

1. the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints (Rev. 5:8)

This shows that the saints in heaven pray for the saints on earth.

2. "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3?4).

Angels use intercession as well

3. "See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 18:10).

Says that angels watching over small children have guaranteed access to God

4. Because he is the only God-man and the Mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1?4). In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for "[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects" (Jas. 5:16).

One would assume that Protestans follow the Bible as much as other Christians no?

Threads like this only show that many people are ill-informed about their own religion, and that make misinterpretation rather easy.

Which part of the protestant bible did you find this verse in?

In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for "[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects" (Jas. 5:16).

Is it supposed to be this verse?

new american standard version (directly translated from the original greek)

James 5:16
16Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.

King James version

James 5:16
16Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

New International Version

James 5:16
16Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

 

maluckey

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2003
2,933
0
71
Which part of the protestant bible did you find this verse in? In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for "[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects" (Jas. 5:16).


My notoriously and oft admitted bad typing skills and poor cut and paste abilities forgot to separate information from quotes.


The only real difference in the beliefs of Catholics versus Protestants as far as intercession is that the Protestants are more cautious about a slippery slope than the Orthodox and Roman Catholics. The Protestants prefer to avoid intercession prayers for their own reasons, while the Catholics don't avoid these type of prayers for their own reasons.
 

pstylesss

Platinum Member
Mar 21, 2007
2,914
0
0
Originally posted by: maluckey
Originally posted by: ZeroIQ
Originally posted by: inspire
Originally posted by: ZeroIQ
Originally posted by: Drift3r
Originally posted by: ZeroIQ
Originally posted by: loki8481
Originally posted by: dainthomas
Originally posted by: loki8481
aren't Catholics the only ones who pay any attention to Mary?

Where do Protestants think Jesus came from?

I don't know any protestants :eek:

I always thought that the catholics viewed Mary as like a religious figure, whereas the protestants view her as the chick who gave birth to baby Jesus.

Pretty spot on. Protestants don't idolize her or pray to her like catholics do (I think they Youpray to her, right?). You can't tell me they don't idolize her, because they do.

Protestants believe she was a virgin, but she was nothing more than the mother of Christ.

She is revered as religious figure but they do not idolize her as a God as you are suggesting. No Catholic I know ( grew up Catholic myself ) ever viewed the Virgin Mary with the same regard as they view God himself. They pray to her in hopes that she hears their prays and relays them to God just like they pray to saints to do the same. Being that she is believed to hold a special place with God as the mother of God's son Jesus they believe she just might have some pull with him so to speak.

...which is idolizing. It's part of the 10 commandments.

I'm not saying they hold her as God. But the Bible talks about worshiping others. Also, praying to Mary and/or saints would suggest that God is not all powerful and cannot hear our prayers, which would go against what the Bible teaches as well.

Intercession is probably a more accurate term that non-Catholics would understand. Intercession is well-documented in the Bible.

And being that intercession is praying on behalf of someone else (only living people for protestants), that is not the right word to use. I used the right word - idolizing.

No where in the Bible does it talk about praying to Mary of any of the saints to have your prayers answered. This is a made up belief (as in not in the Bible) of the Catholics and some other religions.

I found these tidbits.....from the Bible

1. the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints (Rev. 5:8)

This shows that the saints in heaven pray for the saints on earth.

2. "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3?4).

Angels use intercession as well

3. "See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 18:10).

Says that angels watching over small children have guaranteed access to God

4. Because he is the only God-man and the Mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1?4). In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for "[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects" (Jas. 5:16).

One would assume that Protestans follow the Bible as much as other Christians no?

Threads like this only show that many people are ill-informed about their own religion, and that make misinterpretation rather easy.

1. That is taken from Revelation, which has not yet happened. And even so, people in heaven praying for people on earth have nothing to do with us praying to saints or Mary so they pray to God on our behalf. Also, that verse does not say those prayers are the prayers of the saints for people on earth. You are adding to that verse by your own assumption.

2. Again, that is not intercession... I don't have my Bible with me so I'm not certain if that is meant to be taken literally, but even so, the saints are not praying to the angel to have the angel take the prayers to God. Also the smoke came from the incense from the hands of the angel, not the prayers. That verse is also not saying that angels prayed on behalf of anyone. That verse is also saying that the prayers were already on the golden alter.

3. What's your point? Mary, nor the saints have access to God, is that what you're saying? If thats the case then if someone wants to pray to someone to give a message to God, they should pray to angels.

4. And since you so conveniently mixed your opinion in with a verse in point number 4, there is nothing to address and you made no point.


You have not made a valid argument about Christians praying to Mary or the saints for anything. A reason for that could be because we aren't supposed to. Please, next time quote which version you are taking your verses from, as some of the verses were very watered down and lost a lot of meaning.


Originally posted by: maluckey
Which part of the protestant bible did you find this verse in? In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for "[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects" (Jas. 5:16).


My notoriously and oft admitted bad typing skills and poor cut and paste abilities forgot to separate information from quotes.


The only real difference in the beliefs of Catholics versus Protestants as far as intercession is that the Protestants are more cautious about a slippery slope than the Orthodox and Roman Catholics. The Protestants prefer to avoid intercession prayers for their own reasons, while the Catholics don't avoid these type of prayers for their own reasons.

You're wrong. One of the differences is that Protestants (some) do not add meaning and their own books to the Bible to benefit their religion... since if I'm not mistaken, Catholics used to charge money to pray on your behalf, right? Or so the priest would allow your prayer to reach a saint of some unbiblical nonsense like that.
 

maluckey

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2003
2,933
0
71
You're wrong. One of the differences is that Protestants (some) do not add meaning and their own books to the Bible to benefit their religion... since if I'm not mistaken, Catholics used to charge money to pray on your behalf, right? Or so the priest would allow your prayer to reach a saint of some unbiblical nonsense like that.

Since you wish to be ignorant of good manners and proper thinking.....

The concerned parties (all corrupt) ended that centuries ago. Dirt is easy to find on ANY group. Even you have shown your true colors already! Are you a Jesus Warrior?

BTW, the Catholics didn't commission the KJV, nor do they use it. However, the KJV contained ALL the same books as the Catholic bible...then later evangelical groups cut out the books that they felt were not divinely inspired. I'm sure that in five hundred years, some other group will continue to whittle it down as they feel fit, and we'll see a twenty page bible in third grade big print for the faithful who of course deny schooling, science and all that other uneccessary stuff not mentioned in the Bible.

Now, back to being civil. A point of view is just that. You see the book as too full and they see your book as too empty. It's your choice, but differences are easy to find, where you should look is the similarities which are numerous.

According to a viewer comparing protestants in a harsh light:

Protestants changed the religion, cut out books, added in some cases pre-destination, ascribed literal translations to cautionary tales and hold an extreme view of the world to the exclusion of modern science which is some cases seemingly contradicts the Bible.

Of course the opposite could be true as well. You could easily accuse the Catholics of cutting out and adding as they see fit.

Of course it's their religion, and if you don't like it, you shouldn't practice it any more than I practice being Shinto or being a Witness.



 

pstylesss

Platinum Member
Mar 21, 2007
2,914
0
0
Originally posted by: maluckey
You're wrong. One of the differences is that Protestants (some) do not add meaning and their own books to the Bible to benefit their religion... since if I'm not mistaken, Catholics used to charge money to pray on your behalf, right? Or so the priest would allow your prayer to reach a saint of some unbiblical nonsense like that.

Since you wish to be ignorant of good manners and proper thinking.....

The concerned parties (all corrupt) ended that centuries ago. Dirt is easy to find on ANY group. Even you have shown your true colors already! Are you a Jesus Warrior?

BTW, the Catholics didn't commission the KJV, nor do they use it. However, the KJV contained ALL the same books as the Catholic bible...then later evangelical groups cut out the books that they felt were not divinely inspired. I'm sure that in five hundred years, some other group will continue to whittle it down as they feel fit, and we'll see a twenty page bible in third grade big print for the faithful who of course deny schooling, science and all that other uneccessary stuff not mentioned in the Bible.

Now, back to being civil. A point of view is just that. You see the book as too full and they see your book as too empty. It's your choice, but differences are easy to find, where you should look is the similarities which are numerous.

According to a viewer comparing protestants in a harsh light:

Protestants changed the religion, cut out books, added in some cases pre-destination, ascribed literal translations to cautionary tales and hold an extreme view of the world to the exclusion of modern science which is some cases seemingly contradicts the Bible.

Of course the opposite could be true as well. You could easily accuse the Catholics of cutting out and adding as they see fit.

Of course it's their religion, and if you don't like it, you shouldn't practice it any more than I practice being Shinto or being a Witness.

I take this to mean you are not going to address my above disagreements and reasons for them from versus that you provided? Hey, if something exists in a catholic only book that talks about praying to mary or saints for prayer, then I will let the argument go because I do not believe in those books... but then you have a problem with those books disagreeing with the rest of the Bible.

There are plenty of reasons for me to say catholics add to and take from their bible for their own benefits.

The books that only the catholics have were not preserved by the Jews, Gods chosen people, they also contain many historical errors unlike other books of the Bible. You can google to find those, unless you already know.

Just follow the money in Catholicism.


EDIT: And how have a shown my true colours? Or what is it exactly that you see? I assume you're a catholic, and so to be on a level playing field you can know that I'm a Baptist. You can try to find dirt on them if you wish. However, if a Baptist were to stray from the Bible and add parts or take away from to benefit the religion or church... well, I would not follow them.
 

maluckey

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2003
2,933
0
71
ZeroIQ,

What part of the ORIGINAL KJV, not commissioned by Catholics, but by Protestants, have the same books don't you get?

Evengelicals removed the books that they felt o be non-inspired. It's their decision. Witnesses have a different bible translation, and have some beliefs not shared by evangelicals or Catholics.

Blind fanaticism and judgemental behavior is not proper behavior for a self-proclaimed christian. You started off with an attack, then went on with accusations and judgements. Finally you went on to dismiss someone elses ideas along with the ideas of Jews. Not once did you consider that someone was allowed a viewpoint that differed from your own.

What are you so afraid of? Will the Boogeyman grab you if you stop to think for yourself for half a second?

A lot of people with your attitude show up with Reverend Phelps at military funerals.
 

pstylesss

Platinum Member
Mar 21, 2007
2,914
0
0
Originally posted by: maluckey
ZeroIQ,

What part of the ORIGINAL KJV, not commissioned by Catholics, but by Protestants, have the same books don't you get?

Evengelicals removed the books that they felt o be non-inspired. It's their decision. Witnesses have a different bible translation, and have some beliefs not shared by evangelicals or Catholics.

Blind fanaticism and judgemental behavior is not proper behavior for a self-proclaimed christian. You started off with an attack, then went on with accusations and judgements. Finally you went on to dismiss someone elses ideas along with the ideas of Jews. Not once did you consider that someone was allowed a viewpoint that differed from your own.

What are you so afraid of? Will the Boogeyman grab you if you stop to think for yourself for half a second?

A lot of people with your attitude show up with Reverend Phelps at military funerals.

What the hell are you talking about? You provided versus that were in the Protestant Bible to try to prove to me that intercession, as you define it, is in the Bible. When I refute that argument with the same versus you provide, you have nothing to say.

As I already stated in my last post, if the only place that has talk of praying to Mary or the saints is in the books which are not recognized by Protestants, then there is no point in arguing this since we are not even discussing the same thing. However, you quoted versus from shared books of the Bible and had yet to back them up.

I claimed the some of the ideas were unbiblical nonsense, which would be the only thing you could perceive as an attack.

I did not dismiss the ideas of the Jews... I said the books that the catholics recognize were not recognized by the Jews... so if anything, it is Catholics, not I that are dismissing the ideas of the Jews.

Now you accuse me of not thinking for myself, while I have already stated that if even a Baptist were to not follow what is written in the Bible, added to or took away, I wouldn't follow them. You (I assume) belong to one of the largest, and most powerful religions out there, and can try to claim I don't think for myself?

You are the one starting the personal attacks here, not I.
 

maluckey

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2003
2,933
0
71
First off Zero,

You havn't backed up ANY of your claims and accusations. You started to talk, then went off on a rant.

There are plenty of reasons for me to say catholics add to and take from their bible for their own benefits.

What are the reasons?

The books that only the catholics have were not preserved by the Jews, Gods chosen people, they also contain many historical errors unlike other books of the Bible.

Name the historical errors einstein. You should know that Catholics aren't Jewish and what they do or say is their own choice.

Just follow the money in Catholicism.

Please enlighten us all with your inside knowledge.

You're wrong. One of the differences is that Protestants (some) do not add meaning and their own books to the Bible to benefit their religion

Catholics have the Same number of books as the Original KJV (a Protestant Bible). Please show that the KJV wasn't politically motivated, and show that later evangelicals didn't remove books for their own personal needs.

Finally, you're making the accusations, so YOU back them up. I can tell you that Catholics worship Satan and eat babies, but that isn't worth squat without proof.

In short, you're seeing the Boogeyman around every corner. What's next ? Shall we discuss how long man has been on the planet? Discuss the false cavemen and evolution? Shall you tell me about the "false religions"?
 

pstylesss

Platinum Member
Mar 21, 2007
2,914
0
0
Originally posted by: maluckey
First off Zero,

You havn't backed up ANY of your claims and accusations. You started to talk, then went off on a rant.

There are plenty of reasons for me to say catholics add to and take from their bible for their own benefits.

What are the reasons?

The books that only the catholics have were not preserved by the Jews, Gods chosen people, they also contain many historical errors unlike other books of the Bible.

Name the historical errors einstein. You should know that Catholics aren't Jewish and what they do or say is their own choice.

Just follow the money in Catholicism.

Please enlighten us all with your inside knowledge.

You're wrong. One of the differences is that Protestants (some) do not add meaning and their own books to the Bible to benefit their religion

Catholics have the Same number of books as the Original KJV (a Protestant Bible). Please show that the KJV wasn't politically motivated, and show that later evangelicals didn't remove books for their own personal needs.

Finally, you're making the accusations, so YOU back them up. I can tell you that Catholics worship Satan and eat babies, but that isn't worth squat without proof.

In short, you're seeing the Boogeyman around every corner. What's next ? Shall we discuss how long man has been on the planet? Discuss the false cavemen and evolution? Shall you tell me about the "false religions"?

I'll address the above when I have time, I'm at work.

In the mean time, you used versus to back up your reasons for intercession being ok and you have yet to refute my arguments. Should I take that to mean you accept what I said about those versus as true and correct?
 

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
5,649
0
0
I couldn't get past the fact that I think that this is a two for one ad that accomplishes its true two-fold intent.

1. Makes Hooters even more reviled by the Christians
2. Drives them even more towards the "good Christian owned franchise" Chik-fil-a

With the way the cow was looking at the wings....I was looking for the "Eat more chiken" sandwich board to no avail. :)
 

maluckey

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2003
2,933
0
71
I like the Hooters ads:laugh:

The only issue that I see as a Christian is that now every time I think of Jesus...I think of hot wings. Am I going to hell?