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Rights contradiction?

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nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,816
83
91
Why shouldn't they be able to give them to anybody they choose? A sibling? A parent? A cousin? A friend?

Why should someone's right to collect money they are owed be limited to a person they can legally marry, regardless of gender?
I think there's something to be said for that argument.

but some form of marriage/civil unions has a place when you're talking about child custody, an unexpected death, medical emergencies, or a combination of them (eg: a woman's wife dies while giving birth and the child is in critical condition... if it were a straight couple, the father would automatically have a legal right to decide on the child's medical care and have custody after the fact. without the legal protections of marriage, the woman's family could sweep in and claim custody and they'd be locked in court for months... for the sake of argument, in both cases let's assume the woman was artificially inseminated by an anonymous sperm donor)

it's probably not reasonable to expect gay people to have to jump through hoops where a straight couple would get all that resolved simply by signing on a line.
 

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
126
Why shouldn't they be able to give them to anybody they choose? A sibling? A parent? A cousin? A friend?

Why should someone's right to collect money they are owed be limited to a person they can legally marry, regardless of gender?
For assets that can be assigned, certainly they can do so with a will. In the absence of a will one of the things the state looks at next is the presence of a marriage. If it exists then the spouse and any children get property before a parent or sibling. If a Jew, atheist or homosexual is not allowed to marry, they lose this protection.

Many pensions are different because they are not a lump sum or transferable asset, they are an annuity tied to your life and your death. Many of them include a secondary benefit tied to the life of a second person (the spouse).

Should that continue to exist? Perhaps not, and most employers are moving away from it.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
it's probably not reasonable to expect gay people to have to jump through hoops where a straight couple would get all that resolved simply by signing on a line.
You're right, I don't think it's reasonble to expect gay couples to jump through extra hoops just to keep the fringe right wingers happy.

But I don't think it's reasonable to make anybody jump through hoops for things that should be simply contractual matters. Setting up a beneficiary, no matter who they are, isn't a problem for a private insurance company so why is it so difficult for the government? By default guarianship of minor children passes to the spouse, but why shouldn't the legal guardians (parents or whoever they are) be able to simply set up a chain of guardianship that gets followed until finding someone willing and able to care for the children?

There are so many things that are ridiculously simple that we've made a big deal of by tying them to a religious and political hot button.
 

TerryMathews

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,473
2
0
The real issue, to me, is that we codified a religious ceremony into law. We should've never done that.

It is not fair to force Christians to accept homosexuality, since we do not force Muslims to allow female clergy, for example.

What we call marriage under the law should be civil unions, with no religious affiliations what-so-ever.

Homosexuals should have equal rights under the law, without question. That said, Christians shouldn't be unduly coerced to give up what they feel is a religious tenent simply because they have the misfortune to have one of their religious ceremonies codified into law.

We give other religious much more latitude. Didn't I just read a story about ultra-orthodox Jews performing a particular ceremony that would get a non-Jew 20-to-life?
 

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,816
83
91
for what it's worth, I can't think of a single group arguing to force religious institutions to perform gay marriages against their will.
 
Jun 2, 2012
28
0
0
Sodomy has an involvement of a member and an anus. An anus includes fecal matter which carries many diseases, like animals. Basically comparing sodomy health wise to sleeping with animals. With all this resource and ten fingers and ten toes mixing it, along with our opinions. How do we exist? Space exploded and made a sphere with 7 continents and/or 1 that split to 7. But no real proof of it. Religion seems to be really popular in this world. Christians being some of the best people, and having full faith in God, do to signs that were shown to them by Him. According to their testimonies in belief of "The Father Of All Truth." So we just popped into existence, or are created by a "Creator." Argumentatively. So in the context of the creator God, he is against sodomy, and "Marriage" Is a religious sanctimony; therefore making "Gay Marriage" Sacrilegious. Because a Creator would fully understand the FILTH of Feces and the damage to population growth(Be Fruitful and Multiply). So God would as our creator, which is the most popular name to people; Would disagree with homosexuality. Or any "Creator" in that sense. Then with the thoughts or lack there of a "Creator." As the human race we should be preserving our lives and living as long of a life as possible therefore avoiding all blights to our flesh.

In the context of the "Human Race" Homosexuality causes Aids and other STD s possibly. I have not studies sodomy. Aids damages our immune system and spreads very easily. So with sexual promiscuity in society and Liberals accepting everybody as they are; instead of acting against or teaching against, as parents or as friends: male or female. So the point of this little chunk of text is to explain population detriment VIA Homosexuality, and sexual promiscuity.

To be honest from my opinions. I do not mind homosexuals in the least bit, i worry for their health; And the human race. Also if our Creator is God, I feel bad for him watching it. If you read Genesis it says that God walked with us and is Almighty, All Powerful, and All Knowing along with being Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and The End, and The First and The Last. Meaning has every power, Knows all on the mix of mass and craftsmanship, Top and Greatest, Creator of us and our Life Expectancy, and the only one of his kind. It also says that he walked with us. The Great I AM. If you check some christian songs like "mercyme - Only You Remain." is says Quote "We sing Holy, THE ONLY UNCREATED ONE" meaning that "The Holy Spirit is the beginning of time. ever have inappropriate thoughts that don't really seem like you? Well my friend that animal is called a Devil. Ever get an urge to your chest to do something, well my friend; that animal is called a Devil.

BTW I am All Understanding like King Solomon, which is a different functionality of mind than normal mankind and I converse with God Regularly. We are made of Microscopic specs of dust culminated in pattern to make perpetual energy and reproduction mixed in density and form to culminate us and the universe.

search "how do we exist."
 

zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
10,560
2
0
for what it's worth, I can't think of a single group arguing to force religious institutions to perform gay marriages against their will.
But why would people like nehalem and other anti-SSM zealots want to start letting truth get in the way of their arguments now?
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,145
9
81
Most believe that in a democracy, everybody should have the same basic rights.

But many in the US oppose gay marriage and gay rights. Isn't this a contradiction? If one supports basic liberal democratic ideals, then there can be no selective thinking. To say "the Bible opposes it" is immaterial, since liberal democracy is not a Biblical system. The Old Testament God nor Jesus ever mentioned it or endorsed it.
I think the issue is there shouldn't be "gay rights" anymore then there should be a marriage ban.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
6
0
But why would people like nehalem and other anti-SSM zealots want to start letting truth get in the way of their arguments now?
I have never made an argument based on religion. In fact I have advanced on multiple times that non-Christian societies also oppose gay marriage. Such as for example Japan and China.
 

zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
10,560
2
0
I have never made an argument based on religion. In fact I have advanced on multiple times that non-Christian societies also oppose gay marriage. Such as for example Japan and China.
That's not what my post was about.
 

Ryan

Lifer
Oct 31, 2000
27,518
1
81
Sodomy has an involvement of a member and an anus. An anus includes fecal matter which carries many diseases, like animals. Basically comparing sodomy health wise to sleeping with animals. With all this resource and ten fingers and ten toes mixing it, along with our opinions. How do we exist? Space exploded and made a sphere with 7 continents and/or 1 that split to 7. But no real proof of it. Religion seems to be really popular in this world. Christians being some of the best people, and having full faith in God, do to signs that were shown to them by Him. According to their testimonies in belief of "The Father Of All Truth." So we just popped into existence, or are created by a "Creator." Argumentatively. So in the context of the creator God, he is against sodomy, and "Marriage" Is a religious sanctimony; therefore making "Gay Marriage" Sacrilegious. Because a Creator would fully understand the FILTH of Feces and the damage to population growth(Be Fruitful and Multiply). So God would as our creator, which is the most popular name to people; Would disagree with homosexuality. Or any "Creator" in that sense. Then with the thoughts or lack there of a "Creator." As the human race we should be preserving our lives and living as long of a life as possible therefore avoiding all blights to our flesh.

In the context of the "Human Race" Homosexuality causes Aids and other STD s possibly. I have not studies sodomy. Aids damages our immune system and spreads very easily. So with sexual promiscuity in society and Liberals accepting everybody as they are; instead of acting against or teaching against, as parents or as friends: male or female. So the point of this little chunk of text is to explain population detriment VIA Homosexuality, and sexual promiscuity.

To be honest from my opinions. I do not mind homosexuals in the least bit, i worry for their health; And the human race. Also if our Creator is God, I feel bad for him watching it. If you read Genesis it says that God walked with us and is Almighty, All Powerful, and All Knowing along with being Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and The End, and The First and The Last. Meaning has every power, Knows all on the mix of mass and craftsmanship, Top and Greatest, Creator of us and our Life Expectancy, and the only one of his kind. It also says that he walked with us. The Great I AM. If you check some christian songs like "mercyme - Only You Remain." is says Quote "We sing Holy, THE ONLY UNCREATED ONE" meaning that "The Holy Spirit is the beginning of time. ever have inappropriate thoughts that don't really seem like you? Well my friend that animal is called a Devil. Ever get an urge to your chest to do something, well my friend; that animal is called a Devil.

BTW I am All Understanding like King Solomon, which is a different functionality of mind than normal mankind and I converse with God Regularly. We are made of Microscopic specs of dust culminated in pattern to make perpetual energy and reproduction mixed in density and form to culminate us and the universe.

search "how do we exist."
Holy shit - how has this been overlooked? Just so you know, 30% of straight couples have anal sex: http://blogs.menshealth.com/health-headlines/sex-statistics/2011/03/03

With those statistics alone, that means there are more straight people buggering each other at one time than all of the gay men combined! How do lesbians fit into your rant, or even those gay people who don't have anal sex?

You are a small step away from this woman, and a prime example of why zealots need to be removed from the political decision making process: http://www.youtube.com/embed/8fTRhOw76do
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
86
Most believe that in a democracy, everybody should have the same basic rights.

But many in the US oppose gay marriage and gay rights. Isn't this a contradiction? If one supports basic liberal democratic ideals, then there can be no selective thinking. To say "the Bible opposes it" is immaterial, since liberal democracy is not a Biblical system. The Old Testament God nor Jesus ever mentioned it or endorsed it.
Wow, you have found the logical loophole that proves you right in everything you say!

Yay!


Anyways, what rights are different between a straight man and a gay man? Is a straight man any more capable of marrying another straight man? I think not!

On the side, do you believe America should support polygamy? Bestiality? Pedophilia? Incest? If you respond "no" to any of these, then you are selectively picking and choosing unequal rights for various Americans, and that is a direct contradiction to Democracy. Right? You said so.


But, for those like you who don't seem to have a clue what a Democracy is, pure Democracy is where every citizen has an equal voice in the laws and actions of the government. Democracies still create laws for how society is to act, and what is legal and what is illegal, determined by majority opinion (not 100% opinion).
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
86
I don't care straight or gay.

But, intelligence levels do irritate me.

You cannot use the argument of "equal rights" to prove that gays deserve to be married.

Because, to someone who believes that the definition of the word marriage is a union between one man and one woman - if that is your base definition, then gays not being able to marry, is not a violation of equal rights. Everyone is being treated equally.

That's why that stance doesn't sway any new opinions to the "gay marriage" camp. If your goal is to convince those who oppose gay marriage otherwise, then you need to involve another element into your argument than the plain "equal rights".
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,567
6
81
Marriage is about more than saying something is ok. It is saying it is good for society.
Since you obviously think same-sex marriage is NOT good for society, where's your support for that contention?

Let's me shoot down one obvious argument you'll try to make:

Raising children? Nope. Tax deductions for dependents are available to both married and unmarried parents. And more than 50% of children in America are born out of wedlock. Furthermore, lots of married heterosexual couples have no children and many are incapable of having children (yet we allow such couples to marry). Finally, many, many gays are capable of having and raising children (sperm banks, surrogate mothers, adoptions). So it's rather difficult to argue that there's any child-raising benefit to being married, or any benefit that's exclusive to heterosexuals that wouldn't also accrue to gays.

So explain to us how heterosexual marriages are "good," yet same-sex marriages would not be "good" in exactly the same way?
 
Jun 2, 2012
28
0
0
Holy shit - how has this been overlooked? Just so you know, 30% of straight couples have anal sex: http://blogs.menshealth.com/health-headlines/sex-statistics/2011/03/03

With those statistics alone, that means there are more straight people buggering each other at one time than all of the gay men combined! How do lesbians fit into your rant, or even those gay people who don't have anal sex?

You are a small step away from this woman, and a prime example of why zealots need to be removed from the political decision making process: http://www.youtube.com/embed/8fTRhOw76do
Damage to population is the only issue I have logically with that promiscuity and lifestyle. There's no gay sex in heaven, so, live it up.

That and I think prudence to your insult. Read Proverbs, it is instruction. I am not a fanatic, I am kind and caring to all walks of life, even animals.


BTW: The filth in the mix of man member to animal orifice and male or female anus is the comparison, not the thinking. I meant no insult, it was a simple preaching. I apologize if you took offense from a science based factual writing.
 
Jun 2, 2012
28
0
0
Since you obviously think same-sex marriage is NOT good for society, where's your support for that contention?

Let's me shoot down one obvious argument you'll try to make:

Raising children? Nope. Tax deductions for dependents are available to both married and unmarried parents. And more than 50% of children in America are born out of wedlock. Furthermore, lots of married heterosexual couples have no children and many are incapable of having children (yet we allow such couples to marry). Finally, many, many gays are capable of having and raising children (sperm banks, surrogate mothers, adoptions). So it's rather difficult to argue that there's any child-raising benefit to being married, or any benefit that's exclusive to heterosexuals that wouldn't also accrue to gays.

So explain to us how heterosexual marriages are "good," yet same-sex marriages would not be "good" in exactly the same way?

Well, sodomy is bad for the health if no protection is used. So then to live that lifestyle, would be a blight of using protection for every Sodomy act.


The Idea is that we as Christians appose sexual immorality in lifestyle out of faithfulness to God; Who has to watch disgusting acts. Marriage is a "HOLY SANCTIMONY" therefore religion wise Christian. Any other non-HOLY religious sanctimonious joint legal moves, I could care less about. It just holds back Christianity(therefore teaching against sin) farther from schooling.

To stop any insults, I am not a "fanatic," I am a preacher.
 

dawp

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
10,836
2,061
126
Holy shit - how has this been overlooked? Just so you know, 30% of straight couples have anal sex: http://blogs.menshealth.com/health-headlines/sex-statistics/2011/03/03

With those statistics alone, that means there are more straight people buggering each other at one time than all of the gay men combined! How do lesbians fit into your rant, or even those gay people who don't have anal sex?

You are a small step away from this woman, and a prime example of why zealots need to be removed from the political decision making process: http://www.youtube.com/embed/8fTRhOw76do
Also remember as far as legal definitions are concerned, sodomy includes all sex act outside of 'normal' sex, including oral, anal and such.
 

zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
10,560
2
0
A leader with no followers is just a guy taking a walk.

A preacher with no listeners is just a guy talking to himself.
 

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