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Mar 11, 2004
20,696
2,836
126
what about a guy like pcgeek11 who I don't believe supports him any longer (might be wrong on that)? Are they honest enough to admit they were suckered by a con man and feel at least a little shame?
Don't fall for his shit. He's done this whole routine before. Pretty sure he was one of the ones that claimed he super duper absolutely did not vote for Turmp, he doesn't support Turmp, doesn't like him, (never even met the guy, has no idea who he even is...), but Turmp was "saying things that made sense" to him, then finally revealed he did vote for Turmp (like he was fooling anyone that he hadn't). Think that was around the time when Turmp gave Putin a blowjob at some meeting and cameras caught Turmp's walk of shame with Putin following behind smiling after a bit. He's full of shit, and cops this when its something that even he knows he can't defend. Its so he can keep justifying his completely fucked logic about how he's one of the real objective arbiters of truth and so of course "both sides".
 

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
29,662
493
126
I'm CERTAINLY not equating them in importance; the storming is worse than 9/11 in my book. I'm equating the mechanisms by which propaganda bamboozles us. The American people have prepared themselves for many years, through television, marketing made into a near religion, to the point where some of my fellow musicians, with more than enough talent to be artists, true artists, fall for the trap of trying to fit in that box, that label.
Earlier when talking to some of my more right-leaning friends, I suggested that "Trumpism" was more akin to religion in a sense. Part of what spurred this idea was how my mom had suggested that choosing the President is out of our power because it's God's doing. While that sounds like some weird sort of metaphysical mumbo-jumbo, I think it's awkwardly referring to the lack of free will or predestination. But I digress... the one thing that stood out to me was how religion requires you to place (what I refer to as) blind faith in something that someone tells you. They cannot outright point out and show you God or Jesus, but you just have to believe. Trump and his ilk have failed to show any real evidence of substantial fraud in the election, yet he pushes for people to believe him... and they do.

One thing that has been on my mind lately has been... how do these people fall for it? ...and I've actually been looking at myself. I used to be a Republican and religious when I was younger. I can't guarantee how I would've acted in regard to what's going on right now, but I have a feeling that I would've bought into at least some of it. If that's the case... why? I don't think it's necessarily the same for everyone, but I think part of it would have been my lack of self-confidence. You take a look at the stand-offish rhetoric combined with the proposed wealth, power, and trophy wife... it's this combination creating a sense of yearning and fulfillment.

In regard to marketing, I think you could argue that both religion and marketing try to tell you what type of person you should be. "You didn't buy your gal a diamond ring? I guess you don't love her." Marketing can rely a bit on tribalism like religion, but I would say the difference that I see is that religion tells you what you want to hear where marketing tells you who you want to be.

And I'll say it again, if you have bought 7 iPhones in the last 10 years, but you have no savings, you've been bamboozled. This is not a hypothetical situation; I'm in L.A. and know more people like that than I can comfortably live with. The fact that only 39% of the people in the richest country in the world could come up with $1000 without borrowing in case of an emergency is quite serious. QUITE serious.
I agree. I was talking about this aspect to my mom when discussing the stimulus cut-off. You could argue that a wage of $100k sounds like more than enough for a cut-off, but given how much our society has pushed toward consumption, it might not be nearly enough given that stimulus are meant to help sustain.
 
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pcgeek11

Lifer
Jun 12, 2005
17,648
1,802
126
Don't fall for his shit. He's done this whole routine before. Pretty sure he was one of the ones that claimed he super duper absolutely did not vote for Turmp, he doesn't support Turmp, doesn't like him, (never even met the guy, has no idea who he even is...), but Turmp was "saying things that made sense" to him, then finally revealed he did vote for Turmp (like he was fooling anyone that he hadn't). Think that was around the time when Turmp gave Putin a blowjob at some meeting and cameras caught Turmp's walk of shame with Putin following behind smiling after a bit. He's full of shit, and cops this when its something that even he knows he can't defend. Its so he can keep justifying his completely fucked logic about how he's one of the real objective arbiters of truth and so of course "both sides".
Your post couldn't be further from the truth.

You should be ashamed for posting such lies.
 
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sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
68,005
3,069
126
There is a HUGE difference between

"We're going to walk down to the Capitol and we're going to cheer on our brave senators and Congressmen and women," Trump told the crowd, speaking with the White House as a backdrop. "

And what actually happened.

He talked about fighting for what is right etc... then I skipped down to the 8 minute mark and heard him talking about walking down Penn Ave and giving the weak republicans the strength and support they need.

Quite a stretch to go from fighting for what you think is right and supporting the Republicans who wanted an investigation, into inciting a riot and insurrection.
Meh
He specifically wanted to stop the Proceedings from certifying the Biden win. Biden winning was already determined and these proceedings were mere formality to fulfill legal obligation. Stop being so naive on what happened that day. Trump tried to nullify the Election by Illegal means.
 

Veliko

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2011
3,582
119
106
It's staggering to see some people are still defending Trump and/or equating what happened last week to the BLM protests last year.

PCGeek especially - he only agrees to a degree that Trump is a conman, but no worse than the other politicians.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
31,489
10,248
146
It's staggering to see some people are still defending Trump and/or equating what happened last week to the BLM protests last year.

PCGeek especially - he only agrees to a degree that Trump is a conman, but no worse than the other politicians.
Indeed. Trump has been a straight up con man for decades. What you see in pcgeek is the stroking of his ego. He could never fall for it,.it has to be that other politicians are just as bad. This,.of course, is believed without evidence...there are many examples of trump's grifts.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
104,252
18,851
136
BLM marches occured across the country throughout the summer. 98% were uneventful.
Issues popped up in areas where the legitimate issue of Police gone wild proved BLM's point with police going apeshit on people
More issues popped up in specific areas where right wing groups crashed the party.
Then groups that typical show up to tell right wing groups to fuck off joined the party.
BLM went home
Crazy whites wrecked the place.
In the wee hours in some locations crimes of opportunity occured because we can't have anything nice.

We have members on the forum that participated in BLM protests.
We have many people who live in areas where protests occured.
I personally can vouch for protestors and that areas that "Right wing media" claimed to be pure anarchy were indeed not pure anarchy and people were busy having nachos or trying to find a place to listen to music.
I can confirm that counter protestors, aka crazy trumptart white people were straight savage violent mindless fuckshits when BLM marhers were simply trying to complete there route.

Meanwhile
Washington DC was a smidge different some might say.
right?

people that like to point to the deaths as a measuring stick:

OK, let's chart deaths (related to "BLM rallies") against # of events (all summer), # of participants, and against time..

Now, let's do the same for these magaterrorists.

I think some people will not like that knowledge.

The sheer concentration of violence that these jihadists output is truly staggering. It just isn't comparable in any honest way. (also, consider that the Trump jihadists are primarily responsible for the actual violence and murders over the summer at the BLM rallies, as well. At least, according to the data that "Trump's" own JD has published)
 
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zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
104,252
18,851
136
I will state it again just for an end.

I think Trump should have stopped after the votes were re-validated in the questioned States and then gave a concession speech.

Beating the dead horse does no one any good. Now he will pay a severe price one way or another for it due to his own actions...

I'm ready for us all to heal and move along to make the US as good as possible and beat down this Virus.

I wish President Elect Biden all the best and pray that he will bring us back together for the good of the US and all of us.
we could have beaten down the virus back in April and May, but people like you live in this country.

It's a sad truth that we all must deal with.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
29,653
3,203
126
I think you being disingenuous if you don't see the issue. He isn't dumb enough to come right out and say attack that building and take some hostages, to make them turn the election, but he may as well have. First an analogy to make clear to obtuse what was done:
Reading tea leaves becomes very different depending on one's starting perspective.
None of these differences have to be "purposeful" as I hear some members proclaim.

I'll say this...
I didn't watch the President speak. Just gave it a passing glance as I walked by on 1/6. And there is obviously no quote where he instructed the mob. Whether he incited and riled them up is a slightly different matter. But when looking at direct cause and effect, as soon as you require people to connect the dots - that's when failures occur. People do not all imagine things the same way. You hear instructions. They hear blustering opposition. You hear crime. They hear politics.

It takes a deep dive, an honest and vigorous debate over specific terms used. To peel back the layers and even attempt to get people to see it.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
28,656
2,866
126
I'm not buying it but the fib has been promulgated that the election was stolen. If you buy that, you could think sedition and civil war is justified. Of course, it's ALL ONE BIG LIE. tRump will be remembered as the worst POTUS of all time. Take it or leave it, this will be his legacy.
 

Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
61,489
13,499
136
Reading tea leaves becomes very different depending on one's starting perspective.
None of these differences have to be "purposeful" as I hear some members proclaim.

I'll say this...
I didn't watch the President speak. Just gave it a passing glance as I walked by on 1/6. And there is obviously no quote where he instructed the mob. Whether he incited and riled them up is a slightly different matter. But when looking at direct cause and effect, as soon as you require people to connect the dots - that's when failures occur. People do not all imagine things the same way. You hear instructions. They hear blustering opposition. You hear crime. They hear politics.

It takes a deep dive, an honest and vigorous debate over specific terms used. To peel back the layers and even attempt to get people to see it.
And what did the people in the mob hear? Will you contend that they misunderstood Trump's message?
 
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Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
29,653
3,203
126
And what did the people in the mob hear? Will you contend that they misunderstood Trump's message?
Yeah but you're not asking someone who was in the mob. There are still shades of Republican.

Republicans will break down into at least these camps:
  1. Diehard supporters will tell you they did the right thing.
  2. Lukewarm supporters will say the mob was wrong, but they acted on their own.
  3. Opponents will blame the President for the mob.
I didn't hear the President's speech, but there are enough Republicans acting in disgust that I can imagine how the tea leaves went. Plus, there was a decent post describing the incitement here. Beyond that, Trump IS the head of the "stop the steal"... "campaign"... and we see what that culminated in on 1/6. His supporters. As leader it is sort of his fault regardless. As inciter it is definitely something he caused, directly or indirectly. Then the words themselves. The post describing it seemed convincing.

It is like arson. You didn't do it, the flames did.
Though, as an opponent of Trump I hardly needed convincing.

For someone who needs convincing, I'd focus on the arson aspect. Of incitement and leading the charge. And how words have subtle meaning. How leaders must be held responsible for the things they lead. How Trump's exact words did break down into incitement. @guidryp did us all a favor there.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
20,397
684
126
Im not a righty, although most here paint me in that corner, but...as I said in another thread, prosecute them all as terrorists.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
20,397
684
126
I think you being disingenuous if you don't see the issue. He isn't dumb enough to come right out and say attack that building and take some hostages, to make them turn the election, but he may as well have. First an analogy to make clear to obtuse what was done:

Two brothers stop as their favorite Uncle shows up:
Hey boys, remember all that target shooting we did, here are some presents (9mm autos).
But now I have bad news, see those gang bangers over there (points to teens playing basketball). They are planning to attack your family. See the tall one in Green, he's particularly nasty. He's a child rapist. He was heard on tape saying he didn't care about the money and jeweler, he was in it for your 9 year old sister. We're not going to let that happen. The police can't do anything because his lawyer cheated and the tape excluded. So you gotta be strong. You can't defend your sister with weakness. You have to show strength, and you have to be strong. This is my trusted lawyer, "Judy" - Hey kid, I got it all from my connections in the PD - It's time for trial by combat. So maybe head over there and pay them a pleasant visit, or maybe not so pleasant for some....


Kid in green gets shot. Are you going to argue, that the uncle didn't get them to shoot anyone. Let's not play semantic games about the exact wording involved. He didn't say go shoot that guy in those exact words, he just told them, that if you don't stop him your 9 year old sister gets raped.

That is exactly what Trump did on the 6th.

For the actual day in question and what was said. I read the Jan 6, transcript because it's vomit inducing to watch much of the narcissist con man whipping his mob into a frenzy.

It's an hour+ of brainwashing hammering several points repeatedly.

The election was stolen.
We need Mike Pence and Congress to do the right thing.
The country is doomed unless we fix that.
You can't be weak, you must be strong and fight.
Now head on down there...

Same thing here, he didn't say go attack Mike Pence, but he let the connect the dots that if they don't stop Mike Pence, then Joe Biden steals the election and the country is doomed. And there is really nothing needed to connect those dots, it's dumbed to the level that even a Trump supporter gets the message. No coincidence, some were chanting "Hang Mike Pence!". I'll just pull one quote of the mix of many similar that make clear his stirring the anger to send his mob into battle:

And we fight. We fight like Hell and if you don’t fight like Hell, you’re not going to have a country anymore.

Let me repeat that: If you don't fight like Hell, your not going to have a country anymore.

The actual Verbatim quotes can be found here:
https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/donald-trump-speech-save-america-rally-transcript-january-6
Thank you :) So where did he say commit acts of violence?
 

zzyzxroad

Platinum Member
Jan 29, 2017
2,687
1,755
106
Thank you :) So where did he say commit acts of violence?
So in your mind the guy who organized the rally and wiped his cult members into a frenzy using a sea of lies is only culpable if he specifically said go commit acts of violence? Are you incapable of critical though?
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
29,653
3,203
126
So in your mind the guy who organized the rally and wiped his cult members into a frenzy using a sea of lies is only culpable if he specifically said go commit acts of violence? Are you incapable of critical though?
Perhaps you don't know really know what subtext is, or rather... how few people can see it.

Inherently it requires an interpretation. Which is going to be derived from perspective. AKA, different truths. People of different groups will see different subtext, and that's not even counting the percentage of the population utterly incapable of seeing any in the first place. This is rife for argument.
 

Bitek

Diamond Member
Aug 2, 2001
9,096
3,036
136
So in your mind the guy who organized the rally and wiped his cult members into a frenzy using a sea of lies is only culpable if he specifically said go commit acts of violence? Are you incapable of critical though?
Thank you :) So where did he say commit acts of violence?
"Well I wanted to letthe nice pack of puppies out of the cage if they were nice and NOT eat the baby we wrapped in bacon! How were we supposed to know they would do that?!

We said "Puppies, take care of that evil baby who stole your food"! Not eat it! NOT OUR FAULT!"



Im not a righty, although most here paint me in that corner, but...as I said in another thread, prosecute them all as terrorists.
IDK. Maybe try not repeating every stupid ass conservative argument and false equivalence excusing Trump's lawlessness and use logical, fact based thinking? Try that for a while and see what happens...
 
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zzyzxroad

Platinum Member
Jan 29, 2017
2,687
1,755
106
Perhaps you don't know really know what subtext is, or rather... how few people can see it.

Inherently it requires an interpretation. Which is going to be derived from perspective. AKA, different truths. People of different groups will see different subtext, and that's not even counting the percentage of the population utterly incapable of seeing any in the first place. This is rife for argument.
Anyone who thinks Trump's cries of voter fraud were anything but a pack of lies is simply uninformed. Being uniformed is fine but I take issue with folks who draw conclusion on matters they have zero clue about.
 

Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
61,489
13,499
136
Perhaps you don't know really know what subtext is, or rather... how few people can see it.

Inherently it requires an interpretation. Which is going to be derived from perspective. AKA, different truths. People of different groups will see different subtext, and that's not even counting the percentage of the population utterly incapable of seeing any in the first place. This is rife for argument.
Please. It's all derivative of the big lie that the election was stolen & the flooding of the zone with shit to paralyze rational thought, take it down to the gut level of truthiness. They can't describe how it was stolen, exactly, but they know it must have been because they voices they trust say it must have been. Pure conspiracy theory.
 
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Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
61,489
13,499
136
Anyone who thinks Trump's cries of voter fraud were anything but a pack of lies is simply uninformed. Being uniformed is fine but I take issue with folks who draw conclusion on matters they have zero clue about.
They've been deliberately misinformed, their capacity for rational thought bowled over with the firehose of falsehood.
 

VRAMdemon

Diamond Member
Aug 16, 2012
4,763
4,082
136
Trump lost like 1 or 2 % (although falling as we speak) approval rating after he commanded his cultists to launch an insurrection on the capitol. 40% of the American public would be glad to install God-Emporer Trump for life. They are all in lockstep ready to follow the orders of their echo chambers lies and masters. All but 10 house republicans still voted against impeachment. If something happened that was chaotic enough to seem like it was an opportunity to install Republican dictators for life, they’d be all for it. It’s one of the biggest cults in history. These people were in there specifically to prevent the certification of the election of Joe Biden, and ensure that Donald Trump remained president, by physically harming sitting members of congress.
 

DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
11,430
997
126
i don't think a rational conservatism exists anymore - as an ideology - in the US.

think back to the 50s, where you had on one side the "american dream" family, and on the other the pot smokers.
The left's ideals were "let's get high, let's drop out, who needs work man, free love".
The right's ideals were "proper education, sport health and modesty, honest work, keep the world politically stable".

[i am willfully ignoring the racism as it was happening in the 50s; americans were mostly content with segregation and not having to share their country with minorities, so "keep the black man down" wasn't high on the common man's political agenda, mostly because blacks were no competition to the wealthy south]

Over time the southern, self-employed, agrarian states got hit with not being able to keep up with education. You don't need a masters to harvest corn, mrite?
The right's ideology of freedom and self reliance turned into "m'guns will kill anyone i dont like" and "we should bomb all the nations who looks like they are bad". Money got centralized in big cities, which in turn have big colleges, which in turn breed democrats.

The left wing's ideology turned from hippy crystal-healing bullshit, into science-backed modernism. Because, as a non-partisan, what kind of factual arguments can you have against statements such as "capitalistic societies with strong Socialist policies fare better". There's factual studies that these are the wealthiest, most stable, happiest societies in existence.

Science and education have left very little to the imagination. This may be why on the left they are consistently the ones that come out with the weirdest ideas, such as the LGBT pronouns fiasco - just the product of people who canot cope with over-rationalization.

But, on the right, there is little left to argue. Gun ownership, abortion, religious rights, there's not much left that's "debatable", there is pretty much a definitive answer for all of these, and it's not even work-in-progress, it's factual to the point that it can only be denied through ignorance.

I'd be happy for you to enlighten me, so show me one thing that Republicans - and i don't mean ALL of them, a few is enough - fight for which is arguably better than their left-wing counterparts.

Let me make an example of what i mean by arguably better; modesty.
Let's say that one party wants to have laws which prohibit divorce, or nudity, or pornography. These three are things which traditionally conservatives fight against, and the left fights for. We know that excessive pornography can be harmful (if you need to go to therapy, it's bad for you), and, while i see the positive aspects of being able to get divorced, there are some obvious positive aspects to a society where more couples *must* remain married, or where the rate of new births is kept in control. It's probably not as much fun of a society, but hey, there's some good in there. Let's say, you probably would not want to encourage a full-on release of all moral laws.

So, what. What is it that the US right wing is fighting for, today, which is still arguably better than the left-wing equivalent.
 

nickqt

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2015
6,297
4,605
136
i don't think a rational conservatism exists anymore - as an ideology - in the US.

think back to the 50s, where you had on one side the "american dream" family, and on the other the pot smokers.
The left's ideals were "let's get high, let's drop out, who needs work man, free love".
The right's ideals were "proper education, sport health and modesty, honest work, keep the world politically stable".

[i am willfully ignoring the racism as it was happening in the 50s; americans were mostly content with segregation and not having to share their country with minorities, so "keep the black man down" wasn't high on the common man's political agenda, mostly because blacks were no competition to the wealthy south]

Over time the southern, self-employed, agrarian states got hit with not being able to keep up with education. You don't need a masters to harvest corn, mrite?
The right's ideology of freedom and self reliance turned into "m'guns will kill anyone i dont like" and "we should bomb all the nations who looks like they are bad". Money got centralized in big cities, which in turn have big colleges, which in turn breed democrats.

The left wing's ideology turned from hippy crystal-healing bullshit, into science-backed modernism. Because, as a non-partisan, what kind of factual arguments can you have against statements such as "capitalistic societies with strong Socialist policies fare better". There's factual studies that these are the wealthiest, most stable, happiest societies in existence.

Science and education have left very little to the imagination. This may be why on the left they are consistently the ones that come out with the weirdest ideas, such as the LGBT pronouns fiasco - just the product of people who canot cope with over-rationalization.

But, on the right, there is little left to argue. Gun ownership, abortion, religious rights, there's not much left that's "debatable", there is pretty much a definitive answer for all of these, and it's not even work-in-progress, it's factual to the point that it can only be denied through ignorance.

I'd be happy for you to enlighten me, so show me one thing that Republicans - and i don't mean ALL of them, a few is enough - fight for which is arguably better than their left-wing counterparts.

Let me make an example of what i mean by arguably better; modesty.
Let's say that one party wants to have laws which prohibit divorce, or nudity, or pornography. These three are things which traditionally conservatives fight against, and the left fights for. We know that excessive pornography can be harmful (if you need to go to therapy, it's bad for you), and, while i see the positive aspects of being able to get divorced, there are some obvious positive aspects to a society where more couples *must* remain married, or where the rate of new births is kept in control. It's probably not as much fun of a society, but hey, there's some good in there. Let's say, you probably would not want to encourage a full-on release of all moral laws.

So, what. What is it that the US right wing is fighting for, today, which is still arguably better than the left-wing equivalent.
No.
 

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