Reverse Osmosis (& others) supposedly cannot remove any Fluoride. Really?

nova2

Senior member
Feb 3, 2006
982
1
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(fluoride in water)

his claims: http://www.just-think-it.com/no-f.htm
and "My background is that of a Chemical Engineer, having earned my B.A.Sc. from the University of British Columbia in 1984. When it comes to chemistry I can say that I am an "expert" in this area due to studying it full time for over 10 years."

what about filtration using active alumina? he does not mention it, unlike the 2 others.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alumina

if you have something to say regarding fluoridation of water, please post it else where, maybe in my topic here:
http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview...&STARTPAGE=1&FTVAR_FORUMVIEWTMP=Linear

thanks.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
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As one goes down the Table, the size of elements increases while the reactivity decreases.
Wrong. Throw some Francium in water. See if it or Lithium is 'more reactive' - this is a common demonstration in any freshman-level general chemistry course. Of course, since the word 'reactive' is not really meaningful in the sense that he used it, he can get away with this statement.

From Merriam-Webster:
Reactive:
1 : of, relating to, or marked by reaction or reactance
2 a : readily responsive to a stimulus b : occurring as a result of stress or emotional upset <reactive depression>
Thus, we can infer that HF is more reactive than HCl. HCl (Hydro Chloric acid) was the strongest acid we used in school. But HF is so reactive, and so deadly that it was never seen or used in any of the 10 years of chemistry demonstrations and labs I took part in.
More untruthitudes. HCl is extremely reactive, as is HF. They simply react with different things. This is why HF is stored in plastic containers, while HCl is stored in glass containers. HF will eat right through glass but doesn't bother most organic polymers. HCl will eat right through most organic polymers but doesn't bother glass. Reactivity, therefore, is not any quantitative measure of anything - he simply wields it as a weapon against the ignorant. Don't get me wrong - HF is the last thing you want to spill on your hand. However, claiming what he does based on this is a gross non sequitur.
This photograph shows what the fluorine added to Calgary, Alberta's drinking water has done to a thick and "corrosion resistant" steel water supply valve.

Fluoride is used extensively in computer chip and Aluminum and steel manufacture, causing a staggering amount of environmental damage.

In fact, in May, 2000, 3M Corporation announced it was discontinuing a whole family of fluorinated compounds, including Scotchgard, due to their incredible destructiveness to the environment.
These are all completely immaterial. I can throw a barrel of human blood in the water and it will corrode steel and damage the environment. However, that does not mean that it's harmful to humans. In fact, I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone alive without human blood.
Fluorine is also found in mind-affecting drugs like Prozac and the "date rape" drug Rohypnol. Click here for a more complete list of drugs containing fluorine.
More appeal to ignorance. This guy is obviously out to scare people into believing his viewpoint, wielding irrelevant facts as weapons.
Many of us are already aware of something similar to this regarding the Chlorine that is sometimes added to municipal water supplies -- that it forms families of compounds in the water. Well, Fluorine is much more reactive than Chlorine, so one can only imagine the range of deadly compounds it is capable of creating when it is added to drinking water.
:thumsbup; That's some great logic there. 'X is worse than Y, so we can only imagine how terrible X+A is for you!' :roll: I guess this kind of specious logic is all you have to fall back on in the absence of real evidence. I agree that free radicals in your body are bad, but he failed to connect the formation of free radicals with the presence of fluorine in the water supply.

Bottom line: I'm a chemical engineer. BS in 2003, MS in 2004, and (assuming I get the dissertation done in time...) PhD in 2007. I know just about no chemistry. Anyone with a bachelors degree in chemistry will know much more chemistry than myself, yet even I know enough to call shens on this guy's work. If people want to be up in arms about their bodies being 'poisoned' with various substances, their time would be much better spent looking in the direction of phosphoric acid, present in dark sodas (Coke especially). It accelerates aging, joint degeneration, and has other harmful side effects. The body tightly controls the amount of phosphorus running around, so changing the amount is very bad. But I digress. People will believe what they want to believe. I suggest reading up on how fluoride was first discovered to have dental benefits before you buy into any of these conspiracy theories.

edit: And there are processes by which fluorine can be removed from water. Reading his bottom part of the page is making my head spin. This guy is more clueless than I thought. :disgust: Ethanol and water form a minimum boiling azeotrope, yet they can still be distilled. He also neglected liquid-liquid extraction techniques, reactive distillation, and hosts of other well-known separation techniques that any undergrad chemical engineer is very much familiar with. He also doesn't understand that there are many types of membrane separations that can differentiate between water and ionic species. He only mentions size-exclusion membranes, which are probably not the most common for reverse-osmosis water filtration units. But anyway, enough for now.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
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Originally posted by: nova2
sounds good. thanks man.
Aye. I'm not saying anything about whether or not fluoride is good/bad for you, or whether it should/should not be in the water supply. In fact, I don't think it should be in the water supply. But that guy is still a quack. :p
 

Lynx516

Senior member
Apr 20, 2003
272
0
0
You are talking absolute rubbish. HF is more reactive than HCL. Florine is more electronegative (infact the most electronegative thing going). You are true that Francium is more reactive than Lithium. However for atoms which have negative valances the opposite is true florine is more reactive than chlorine. To take this to extremes iodine is not that asstatine is not very reactive at all.

HF is not a strong acid (not the same as reactivity) because it does not dissociate fully in water due to how electronegative Flurine is. It is also extremely deadly exposure over less than 10% of the body is universally deadly no matter of medical tretement. On the matter of storage technically HF should be stored in TEFLON containers because it does eat the plastic just slowly.

However the guy in that article is also talking a hell of a lot of crap as well. Some of his things about weight and size are absolure rubish. Even though the Floride ion is fairly large compared to water is is fairly small (probably about 1/3rd if not less of the size).

Reverse Osmosis does remove florides to a reasonable extent because they are charged and so do not go through the membrane. Even though water is a bigger molecue it goes though because it is uncharged and and the membrane is selective to charges it is allowed though.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
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Originally posted by: Lynx516
You are talking absolute rubbish. HF is more reactive than HCL. Florine is more electronegative (infact the most electronegative thing going). You are true that Francium is more reactive than Lithium. However for atoms which have negative valances the opposite is true florine is more reactive than chlorine. To take this to extremes iodine is not that asstatine is not very reactive at all.
How are you defining reactivity? It's just a hand-waving term this guy throws in there and uses like it's some well-defined criterion that tells you how bad something is. Like I said, I'm not a chemist, but I've taken a lot of chemistry classes. I've taken even more reaction engineering classes. I've never heard a quantitative definition for 'reactivity', which leads me to believe it's a BS term to allow sweeping generalizations like the ones this guy used. Of course, if there is a formal definition (and yes, I'm too lazy to waltz over to my bookshelf and check at this time in the a.m. :p), then I'm al ears.
 

BrownTown

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2005
5,314
1
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"reactivity" in itself means little, reactive with what? like many have said, differnt chemicals react in far different ways, just because chemical A reacts more strongly with water than chemical B doesnt mean A will be more reactive with methane or some other chemical. Also, many people make the mistake of thinking that a very electronegative element must be very reactive, this might be true in the elemental stage, but in molocules the strong electronegativity means that it is less reactive since it is so tightly bound. So, looking at halide funtional groups the less electronegative the better because it takes little energy for an I- anion to be knocked off due to the stability of this anion, but it take much more energy to knock a F- anion off do to its instability. Creating a "reactive" species in a chemical reaction is not favorable.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
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Originally posted by: BrownTown
"reactivity" in itself means little, reactive with what? like many have said, differnt chemicals react in far different ways, just because chemical A reacts more strongly with water than chemical B doesnt mean A will be more reactive with methane or some other chemical.
Right. Not only that, but their levels of 'reactivity' will always depend on the conditions (temperature, pressure, concentration, etc...).
 

Born2bwire

Diamond Member
Oct 28, 2005
9,840
6
71
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
This photograph shows what the fluorine added to Calgary, Alberta's drinking water has done to a thick and "corrosion resistant" steel water supply valve.

Fluoride is used extensively in computer chip and Aluminum and steel manufacture, causing a staggering amount of environmental damage.

In fact, in May, 2000, 3M Corporation announced it was discontinuing a whole family of fluorinated compounds, including Scotchgard, due to their incredible destructiveness to the environment.
These are all completely immaterial. I can throw a barrel of human blood in the water and it will corrode steel and damage the environment. However, that does not mean that it's harmful to humans. In fact, I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone alive without human blood.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the process of obtaining a barrel of human blood was probably harmful to humans.

One thing that I have wondered about the whole flouridated water thing is that the US has probably been flouridating water sources for 50 or 60 years now, but not every water source has been or is flouridated. So it would seem to me that having half a century worth of exposure and non-exposure would generate a decent amount of data for some conclusive studies.