[Reuters] LG planning collab with "Japanese, Chinese companies" to mass produce OLED

[hjalti8]

I don't know how well the OLED tech will scale to desktop monitor sizes.

I don't think it has much to do with sizes.
I think it has more to do with the fact that OLEDs degrade with usage(lose brightness over time).
Well, that happens to pretty much all light sources including LEDs in a backlight of a LCD display, so whats the problem?

The problem is that in an OLED display each pixel is an individual light source. Some pixels may degrade faster than others.
With a monitor you will be displaying static images(windows task bar and such) most of the time so the pixels displaying the bright whites will degrade faster than the pixels displaying the blacks(which do not degrade at all, they are simply turned off in an oled display).

With (lots of)time some portions of the panel will become darker than others. Also know as burn in. This does not happen to lcd's since the backlight degrades uniformly across the whole panel.
With TVs this is not as big of a problem because then we display "non-static" images 99% of the time. So unless you watch the same channel 24/7/365 with a bright non-transparent logo you should be fine there.

That is my theory on why OLED panels in monitors may not be such a good idea until their life time to half original brightness is increased substantially.

 

[destrekor]

I don't think it has much to do with sizes.
I think it has more to do with the fact that OLEDs degrade with usage(lose brightness over time).
Well, that happens to pretty much all light sources including LEDs in a backlight of a LCD display, so whats the problem?

The problem is that in an OLED display each pixel is an individual light source. Some pixels may degrade faster than others.
With a monitor you will be displaying static images(windows task bar and such) most of the time so the pixels displaying the bright whites will degrade faster than the pixels displaying the blacks(which do not degrade at all, they are simply turned off in an oled display).

With (lots of)time some portions of the panel will become darker than others. Also know as burn in. This does not happen to lcd's since the backlight degrades uniformly across the whole panel.
With TVs this is not as big of a problem because then we display "non-static" images 99% of the time. So unless you watch the same channel 24/7/365 with a bright non-transparent logo you should be fine there.

That is my theory on why OLED panels in monitors may not be such a good idea until their life time to half original brightness is increased substantially.

My thought on the different markets for different display sizes is this: the lower sizes dedicated to computer monitors will have higher pixel density, which can be more difficult to manufacture with high quality standards.

With large display TVs, they have larger pixels, so that may or may not contribute more to the engineering problem. I'm not well-versed in the engineering aspect to OLED, I just understand the tech.

I am confident that, in time, the manufacturers will come around to producing OLEDs with greater lifespan and reach good efficiency manufacturing the panels. LG may be on to something with the WOLED tech, but I wouldn't count out RGB OLED just yet, that may just require some more engineering R&D and experience. Many techs were immature for the first few years on the market. Look at how far Plasma Display Panel tech came from first on the market to, well, it's demise. The first generations had severe burn-in potential and short lifespan, and the last generation products had terrific burn-in resistance and long lifespans, with image quality that blew away the first products, including deeper blacks and better, well, everything.

OLED is an incredible but nascent technology, it will take some time to perfect.

BTW, burn-in, technically, is permanent or nearly-permanent image retention. Unequal pixel aging with unequal brightness would be a different issue.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Sony for example wanted to move to CLED in 2012. Simply because the organic part of OLED wouldnt work. Its the weak link and the constant issue for ages now without any apparent fix coming.

 

[Dman8777]

One of the nice things about windows used to be the various color themes available. If I had an OLED and used windows on it, I would run a black background with white or yellow text. That would take care of the lifetime issue. It would help the battery life on laptops with OLED displays.

 

[hjalti8]

BTW, burn-in, technically, is permanent or nearly-permanent image retention. Unequal pixel aging with unequal brightness would be a different issue.

As an owner of samsung D8000 plasma(2010 model) and panny GT60 (2013 model) ill share what I have observed.
The older samsung is more susceptible to image retention and burn-in then the gt60.

What I have noticed with both of them, especially the older samsung, is that image retention is only temporary and quickly goes away if i display "non-static" images.
Now if I would display a static image for multiple hours then maybe the image retention would become near-permanent like you say. But I can not confirm that since the screen saver kicks in way before anything like that happens.

But what I can confirm is that unequal pixel ageing can and ultimately will cause permanent burn-in on self-emissive displays like oleds and plasmas. This is visible on my old samsung plasma when I display a uniform white image.


Also I dont think OLED displays suffer from image retention(apart from some early LG ones, and even then it likely was not caused by the panel itself and was technically different from plasma image retention).

 

[Anubis]

As an owner of samsung D8000 plasma(2010 model) and panny GT60 (2013 model) ill share what I have observed.
The older samsung is more susceptible to image retention and burn-in then the gt60.

What I have noticed with both of them, especially the older samsung, is that image retention is only temporary and quickly goes away if i display "non-static" images.
Now if I would display a static image for multiple hours then maybe the image retention would become near-permanent like you say. But I can not confirm that since the screen saver kicks in way before anything like that happens.

But what I can confirm is that unequal pixel ageing can and ultimately will cause permanent burn-in on self-emissive displays like oleds and plasmas. This is visible on my old samsung plasma when I display a uniform white image.


Also I dont think OLED displays suffer from image retention(apart from some early LG ones, and even then it likely was not caused by the panel itself and was technically different from plasma image retention).

this is all correct the real issue for OLEDs and Plasmas in reguards to IR/BI is things like HUDs in games and static placements like a windows desktop

I played far to much BF3 on my plasma that the health/ammo HUD had a perm burn in the TV, on a white/light colored background you can make out the numbers. it is potentially a HUGE issue for OLEDs and HC gamers

 

[Denithor]

I have seen some of this issue on my LG plasma which doubles as a monitor for my HTPC. Over the years, the Windows taskbar and icons have resulted in "spots" that don't move quite as fast or whatever in movies. The taskbar isn't really a problem as movies don't fill the screen fully (black bars top & bottom hide these image burns) but I can occasionally see the icons on the left side of the screen during a movie. Not a huge deal, and certainly not worth me switching to an LCD screen, just means I will likely only get about 5 or so years lifespan out of a plasma/OLED screen in these conditions.

 

[seitur]

Pixel decay.
Burn-in image.
Price.

Until ALL of those issues are fixed OLEDs have no future.


It is not "flat-screen" dawn anymore.

 

[x3sphere]

Some folks over at AVS have had their OLED TV for a little over a year with no noticeable degradation in brightness.

I'm not really convinced it is an issue. Maybe if you run in torch mode 24/7 it is.

 

[VirtualLarry]

You have a lot more dough to throw around than most of us. Personally $300-400 is my limit, most of the monitors I bought fit in that price range.

Ditto. Although, $250-300 is better for me, if it's a monitor that will last 5+ years for me.

I had a KDS 26" LCD die on me at my new apt. I blame the electrical outlets, but who knows. I took it apart and didn't see any bad caps, so it wasn't cap degradation.

I still have one more, but it's boxed up. I don't want the other one to blow out too.

Currently using a pair of Westinghouse 24" LCD HDTVs (1080P) as monitors. Hey, they were cheap, have speakers, and the price was good. (Cheaper than an equivalent "real" monitor at Newegg.) Sure, they're TN, and have color distortion if I don't look at them straight-on, but that's life, I guess, in the budget lane.

I think my next monitor will be a 4K, probably TN, hopefully with HDMI 2.0, and DP. There's an (Acer? Asus? I forgot) TN 4K 60Hz 28" monitor at Newegg for under $400 on sale. Was looking at that one. Still a tiny bit too rich for my blood, but it would be a nice addition. Still pondering if I need a 4K 60Hz screen, just to Nef.

 

[VirtualLarry]

I have seen some of this issue on my LG plasma which doubles as a monitor for my HTPC. Over the years, the Windows taskbar and icons have resulted in "spots" that don't move quite as fast or whatever in movies. The taskbar isn't really a problem as movies don't fill the screen fully (black bars top & bottom hide these image burns) but I can occasionally see the icons on the left side of the screen during a movie. Not a huge deal, and certainly not worth me switching to an LCD screen, just means I will likely only get about 5 or so years lifespan out of a plasma/OLED screen in these conditions.

That's ok. My 32" LCD with CCFL backlight (it's an older one) has SEVERE burn-in, from running it with Win7 for so long, leaving it on, listening to internet radio.

Yeah, an LCD, with burn-in. Who woulda thunk it?

 

[geoxile]

That's ok. My 32" LCD with CCFL backlight (it's an older one) has SEVERE burn-in, from running it with Win7 for so long, leaving it on, listening to internet radio.

Yeah, an LCD, with burn-in. Who woulda thunk it?

LCDs can suffer from it, just not by the same mechanism. IIRC I recall some early batches of some DELL AH-IPS monitor (one of the first AH-IPS monitors) having burn in.

 

[Subyman]

Oh, there will be professionals, for sure. But for the general public.. that is a different story. OLED excels at motion pictures. Deep blacks, infinite contrast, and fast response times all greatly enhance video quality. But those qualities seem quite marginal to typical desktop use. (e.g. students doing homework or office workers working on their projects) From what I've read 90% of LCD monitors today (laptops included) cannot even display full sRGB gamut. It will be a long, long time before people care about deep blacks on their monitors, and I frankly think desktop platform will take a deeper dive before that time comes.

One potential is the flexibility - literally and figuratively - of OLED, will allow unconventional form factors or materials to be used as displays. (think of those transparent, free-forming screens we see in sci-fi movies or displays "printed" on clothings, etc. ) But that is even farther down the road and predicting the future that far seems rather futile.

I wouldn't be surprised if Apple pushed OLED on their laptops and eventually the iMac. They need new innovations each year and pixel size is hitting diminishing returns.

 

[destrekor]

I wouldn't be surprised if Apple pushed OLED on their laptops and eventually the iMac. They need new innovations each year and pixel size is hitting diminishing returns.

I think they will... once OLED is more mainstream as a display tech. They will definitely be waiting until the tech matures and they can ensure pixel degradation is minimized and panel life is similar to current LCDs.

That, and more than anything else, they will definitely push for color accuracy. Apple monitors aren't necessarily perfect from the start, but they are often closer than many competitors, with good gamma, color temperature (tuned to D65 from the factory) and overall lower delta E, with good panel brightness to boot.

Right now, OLED still has some gamma and color accuracy issues IIRC, especially [or specifically] LG's WOLED tech. I think proper RGB OLED can attain specs that would please a calibrator, but they can easily be crap, especially on phones. I would hope Samsung's premium TV panels would not exhibit the same color issues that their much cheaper and more commodity phone panels exhibit.

 

[therealnickdanger]

Bring back SED!

 

[destrekor]

Bring back SED!

Oh god yes.

I hope the tech gets revived one day. It seems there were issues in both the financing and development departments, with leadership/management being rather questionable. I really do hope the the SED is something salvable and that, with new advancements, can become scalable and profitable.

It seemed to be the holy grail. Which is probably why we will never have it.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Bring back SED!

SED is awful, I say CLED!

 

[destrekor]

SED is awful, I say CLED!

Not sure how you reach the conclusion "awful".

And looking at the demos for CLED, I say I'd take it over LCD every single time, but I don't know if it compares to SED. CLED would be more practical, most likely, at the computer monitor size, but I don't think color and contrast can match what CRT can produce, which is exactly what SED is, at a per-pixel level.

I think SED had a tough time moving past certain phases, and even at retail it would probably struggle just as much as Plasma, which really sucks. I hate the modern consumer. "Thin and light" rules over quality. I doubt SED could reach "LED" aka LCD thinness or lightness, heck, I doubt it could reach even the last generation of plasma. PDP used to be tank-like, but my ST60 is quite thin and light in comparison to my parents' model from 2009 or so.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Well you describe the reasons yourself for SED. And CLED is basicly OLED without the weak organic part.

 

[stuff_me_good]

Yeah, thanks to canon we would had SED for years by now, but since it will never happen, I'd prefer QLED over anything else, but I guess it wont happen anytime soon.

 

[destrekor]

Well you describe the reasons yourself for SED. And CLED is basicly OLED without the weak organic part.

I asked you first.

edit:
For the record, CLED does look very promising, and the question of image quality may be entirely reflective of the early developmental state. Even without being abandoned at this time (I think?), it is still years behind OLED R&D. If OLED can never mature enough with regards to pixel degradation, perhaps development will spike for CLED.

 

[StinkyPinky]

So people have mentioned the problems that need to be overcome with OLED, but there must be some benefits otherwise LG wouldn't be spending huge amounts of R&D, marketing, and manufacturing money pushing the tech.

Less power? Better more vibrant colors and better blacks?

 

[Denithor]

Not sure about the power but otherwise, yes. Stronger and more vibrant colors, faster refresh rates, true black (pixels don't simulate black, they actually turn off completely) for much higher contrast ratios. Cell phones with (AM)OLED screens are visually much nicer than those with LCD screens. LCD just looks kinda washed out compared to OLED.

 

[TurtleCrusher]

Prices will come down. First plasma display I bought (for work) was $40K. Now they are what, $700?

A Samsung plasma 51" 720P "600hz" goes for $350-400 here in the Oregon market.

 

[destrekor]

Not sure about the power but otherwise, yes. Stronger and more vibrant colors, faster refresh rates, true black (pixels don't simulate black, they actually turn off completely) for much higher contrast ratios. Cell phones with (AM)OLED screens are visually much nicer than those with LCD screens. LCD just looks kinda washed out compared to OLED.

Well there's another issue: most cell phones with OLED are terrible oversaturated.

Take a look at a good LCD mobile display with accurate or near-accurate D65 color temperature and controlled vibrancy, and it is quite good looking.

Apple phones tend to have good IPS LCD panels, and the quantum-dot LCD panels on recent Sony Xperia phones are terrific.

OLED is great, but so many phones have so-so examples and have colors that are saturated beyond reason. People do find that kind of look pleasing, and is why even expensive TVs come with wild settings that need to be reigned in if you want a truly great display.