Rethinking Marx

[JS80]

Originally posted by: Fox5

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Yes yes we know you are a socialist steeplebot. I'm sure you'll find plenty of supporters here but most will likely not post in this thread because they don't want to show their true colors.

Socialism no matter how perfect the scenario will fail. The number 1 reason why? human nature. Socialism fails without the big stick of an authoritarian beating people back into line thus distorting it and eventually causing it to collapse.

IMO socialism is for the weak and/or spineless, those who don't want to succeed and climb to the top.

I'd define every nation in the world as adhering to socialism to some aspect.

I would also define socialism as the implementation of programs to uplift as many people as possible for the common benefit of society. I'd consider public education to be one of the biggest, and most important, socialist programs. I'd say some form of universal health care is also important, though it need not cover the more expensive treatments, just the easier to fix medical problems.

Socialism is a result of human greed+democracy. That is why you can never find a place that has true capitalism, because in a democracy someone will always vote to steal from someone else.

 

[Carmen813]

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: Carmen813
Cad,
I think arguing that socialism will fail because of human nature is awfully short-sighted given that our banking system just failed due to human greed. Not saying your stance is without merit, but I think that's a pretty terrible example to use, especially right now.

Our banking system didn't fail because of human greed. Our banking system failed because of the sub-prime crisis, which was brought about by government intervention.

That can be attributed to socialist thought.

And what organizations created sub-prime mortgages? What was their primary motive?

 

[Carmen813]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: K3N

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
You are a socialist because you didnt get anywhere in life and want handouts.

you are a socialist when you value the well being of others instead of thriving on the misery of others (slave wage labor in china and vietnam)

Which are Socialist

No those are communist.

 

[Sacrilege]

Originally posted by: Carmen813

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: K3N

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
You are a socialist because you didnt get anywhere in life and want handouts.

you are a socialist when you value the well being of others instead of thriving on the misery of others (slave wage labor in china and vietnam)

Which are Socialist

No those are communist.

Why do you bother arguing with these dimwitted yokels? They are the lower class of money and intellect. Yet through their voting habits they align themselves with rich, intelligent elites; against their own interests. Such an interesting and sad phenomena....

 

[gingermeggs]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
There are problems now and positives to parts of socialism but the fact is the US has become the wealthiest nation on the planet by adhereing in great part to capitalism and this has helped the average joe, too. The reality is that capitalism has proven itself as fairly effective if not perfect and socialism has yet to do so, but it has proven it's capable of destroying countries.

Actually, you know what that entire article is just fvcking rubbish. It basically obsessed with the trees and misses the forest. Would you rather live in America or a country that has tried socialism? Let's look at venezuela as a contemporary example. As its government has applied socialist ideas they have, with such easy predictability, fvcked the economy over.

I like to see where you really stand on this!
wealthiest nation on earth.

I bet if we did your books- Usa would be bankrupt- but your creditors don't want to know about it yet.

I think its all wishful thinking because your future isn't going to be so flash as your parents past.

 

[gingermeggs]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Why are corporations evil? They are controlled by man.
So then I ask you, who controls government? Man.

You will not escape human nature. You?ll only create an abuse of power from our ruling class. Such power is the opposite purpose of this nation with its constitution entirely designed to protect us from our government.

because they seek to monopolize or collude in their sector and exert political/financial pressure on governments to do things that favour their positions in the market and the society

 

[imported_K3N]

As Marx said, the only way to have truly successful communist society is that it would have to be one transformed from a prosperous capitalist society and then going through the phase of socialism. Marx also writes that main cause of this is because a prosperous capitalist society would eventually destroying itself.

 

[StageLeft]

In honor of the topic, a temporary but poignant segue, fresh off the press at rathergood.com, we have Comrade Laika Rocket Dog

 

[EXman]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: Fox5

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Yes yes we know you are a socialist steeplebot. I'm sure you'll find plenty of supporters here but most will likely not post in this thread because they don't want to show their true colors.

Socialism no matter how perfect the scenario will fail. The number 1 reason why? human nature. Socialism fails without the big stick of an authoritarian beating people back into line thus distorting it and eventually causing it to collapse.

IMO socialism is for the weak and/or spineless, those who don't want to succeed and climb to the top.

I'd define every nation in the world as adhering to socialism to some aspect.

I would also define socialism as the implementation of programs to uplift as many people as possible for the common benefit of society. I'd consider public education to be one of the biggest, and most important, socialist programs. I'd say some form of universal health care is also important, though it need not cover the more expensive treatments, just the easier to fix medical problems.

Socialism is a result of human greed+democracy. That is why you can never find a place that has true capitalism, because in a democracy someone will always vote to steal from someone else.

we already have that here.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: Carmen813

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: Carmen813
Cad,
I think arguing that socialism will fail because of human nature is awfully short-sighted given that our banking system just failed due to human greed. Not saying your stance is without merit, but I think that's a pretty terrible example to use, especially right now.

Our banking system didn't fail because of human greed. Our banking system failed because of the sub-prime crisis, which was brought about by government intervention.

That can be attributed to socialist thought.

And what organizations created sub-prime mortgages? What was their primary motive?

Who took out loans for houses they couldn't afford? What was their primary motive?

 

[CPA]

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed

Originally posted by: Genx87
How can one argue the virtures of a system while not being allowed to discuss its history?
The world isnt an experiment with perfect conditions.

As I said before, this is not about Communism, there is a world of history including today of countries who subscribe to Socialist ideals without the failed Leninist aspects of Marxism. (Communism)

Read the OP before you fly off the handle please.

To make it brief:
The US Socialist Party (back when we had a viable Left before govt purges and brutal repression) was against Bolshevism and Communism from the start, but the party was destroyed by Capitalists trying to connect the two as they shared the same roots, but they are totally different creatures if you read.

You know who else subscribes to the Socialist Agenda? These Guys

 

[Jaskalas]

Topic Summary: As we work out how to save capitalism

The need to take action to "save capitalism" is a false dilemma.

The current problem was created via easy money and insane debts. Letting those institutions fail would clear the way for the healthy institutions that didn?t abuse the system to grow. Instead, we?re currently taking action to save the failed institutions and to back them up with the United States debt. We have essentially taken on and embraced their failed polices.

It is our intervention that is the failure. A free market would clear the dead weight and move on.

Capitalism made us the greatest nation on earth, you would do well to remember and respect that unless it is your intention to send us plummeting down into third world status by removing our greatest strength.

 

[daniel49]

were in transition now from Neocons to NeoMarxists.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: daniel49
were in transition now from Neocons to NeoMarxists.

Sweet, and I get to see it from the ground floor. If we're lucky we'll see the US' cancer solved not by removal of the malignant breast as it should be but by complete termination of the patient!

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: CPA


You know who else subscribes to the Socialist Agenda? These Guys

I know this neat thing called a history book, you should try it sometime.

 

[shadow9d9]

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: Carmen813
Cad,
I think arguing that socialism will fail because of human nature is awfully short-sighted given that our banking system just failed due to human greed. Not saying your stance is without merit, but I think that's a pretty terrible example to use, especially right now.

Our banking system didn't fail because of human greed. Our banking system failed because of the sub-prime crisis, which was brought about by government intervention.

That can be attributed to socialist thought.

Wow. Ignorance like this scares the crap out of me.

 

[Vic]

There's nothing to rethink. Marx's communism is a proven failure. Under the pretense of giving power to all, it entrusts it only to a violent and corrupt few. The eventual outcome should be obvious.

Meh. The problem with arguing ideology is that, in a "perfect" world, any ideology would be successful, except that perfect doesn't exist except as personal opinion. So, of course, any ideologue will believe his ideology will work, so long as he puts his opinion ahead of reality. And it's not just leftists who fall to this fallacy, but ALL ideologues.
Only once you accept the world as it is and choose to work within the confines of reality (particularly with deference and empathy to the differing beliefs, and inherent rights and freedoms, of the other human beings that you share this reality with instead of forcing on them what they don't want) can you even hope to make a positive impact. Any other course of action will ALWAYS lead to an increase of violence and suffering, regardless of your supposed good intentions.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: Carmen813
Cad,
I think arguing that socialism will fail because of human nature is awfully short-sighted given that our banking system just failed due to human greed. Not saying your stance is without merit, but I think that's a pretty terrible example to use, especially right now.

Our banking system didn't fail because of human greed. Our banking system failed because of the sub-prime crisis, which was brought about by government intervention.

That can be attributed to socialist thought.

Don't parrot talking points you obviously know NOTHING about.

The banking system failed because people are stupid and short-sighted. Period.

Blaming 'govt intervention' like a boogeyman in an economic system where the govt prints the sole medium of exchange only makes you look stupid, especially when govt intervention had little to do with the example you give.

Socialism fails because it is a system of mass enslavement. It is neither justice nor equality for me to be my neighbor's slave just because he is also mine. That's just hypocrisy. Just like it is also hypocrisy for the righties to pretend to love small govt in business while at the same time pushing big govt by means of foreign wars and moral interventionism.