Retail computer prices - is building worth it any more?

[pm]

My father wanted another computer for his business - and he wanted it immediately so Dell was out of the question - so we trekked over to Best Buy to see what they had. They had a "VPR Matrix" with a Pentium 2.4B, 512MB DDR SDRAM, a 60GB HD, a 16x DVD-ROM, a fast CD-RW (32x as I recall), a separate PNY AGP GeForce 4 MX440, integrated sound and LAN running XP Home all for $650 after $150 MIR. I opened it up and it uses a standard Intel motherboard - can't recall the model number, but it was an Intel model and was in a standard form-factor ATX case.

I cracked open the case pretty much right away - it used thumbscrews on the case - and found that it was a very standard ATX case with fairly decent cooling, lots of room for expansion, and the cables were neatly tied down. It was pretty much the standard type of build that I would do in a mid-tower ATX case for a friend or family member's request.

I was pretty much blown away. For the longest time, I pretty much have opted for building my own computers for the flexibility and I could pretty much get away with paying a little bit more than retail to do this. But this computer is vastly less than I would have paid to build it myself and I get a much better 1 year warranty from VPR Matrix (which is "Best Buy brand").

My point in posting is twofold - to mention that if you are looking for an upgradeable, expandable computer for a decent price then the VPR Matrix brand at Best Buy uses decent components (Intel motherboard, PNY video, Maxtor 7200 HD) and uses a standard case and motherboard for expansion. And also I was wondering whether people feel that building computers is worth it any more in light of massive OEM discounts on components resulting in much cheaper computers in retail stores.

 

[wetcat007]

I havnt ever delt with that brand before but it sounds like it's good from what you told me, that's a decent dela, however, beware do not assume bigger brand PC's hold this quality, go buy a HP, and you will get horrible quality, nothin worse than HP. Buy a Gateway it will be similar. Buy a Falcon NW or Alienware, and you got your self a kickass machine. heh anyways I'll have to take a look at the vpr matricx machines sometime thery look a hell of a lot better than stupid gay hp cases and other dumb crap ones.

 

[optimistic]

Well lets see...

$190 Pentium 2.4B,
$89 512MB DDR SDRAM,
$70 a 60GB HD,
$40 a 16x DVD-ROM,
$40 a fast CD-RW (32x as I recall),
$60 a separate PNY AGP GeForce 4
$100 Intel motherboard w/ integrated sound and LAN
$60 standard form-factor ATX case
$20 Keyboard/Mouse
$10 Speakers
$8 Floppy
$90 XP Home
_____________
My total.... $777

Bestbuy $800 - $150MIR = $650

Morale of story we lose, they win. And they got support too

 

[Texun]

Good point.

It's next to impossible to beat the shelf prices now days. For those wanting a PC now and do not plan to mess with the innards or have a need to tweak it to the max, Best Buy and others like it will always be a better option. On the other hand, there is no way an enthusiast will settle for anything less that the latest and hottest hardware. I believe there are two distinct demographic groups of PC users out there. I for one never boast about the $1,000 (Conservative estimate) that I have tied up in my PC, but since much of what I do is a hobby and I enjoy doing it I will probably remain an outsider.

I often recommend Dell and other OEM types to friends who want a working PC and could care less or know nothing about the intricacies of timings or frame rates. It keeps me out of the clear when they need help.

 

[DaveSimmons]

texun said it perfectly.

For a business or less demanding user an off-the-shelf PC with included legal OS and real warranty is often the best and cheapest choice.

For my personal PCs I care about things like brand of motherboard and power supply, case style, and a mix of video card, memory, soundcard, drives and CPU that often isn't offered even with built-to-order. Companies like Dell often make you buy more CPU than you really need before they'll let you pick a good video card, or they don't offer the particular soundcard that you want.

I also usually want to set up multiple OSs on both my deskops and servers. My desktop currently has W98 + Win2000 and my server has 2 different installs of Win2000 server plus a partition reserved for Net server.

For total control you still need to build it yourself.

 

[optimistic]

Wait we can beat them! Lets try a little harder.

$190 Pentium 2.4B, (retail for newegg)
$40 512MB DDR SDRAM, (Labeled wrong & after PM/MIR/Coupon)
$70 a 60GB HD, (Fry's HDD)
$37 a 16x DVD-ROM, (mwave)
$30 a fast CD-RW (32x as I recall), (Fry's special)
$50 a separate PNY AGP GeForce 4 (After some hunting)
$60 Intel motherboard w/ integrated sound and LAN (Going with ECS)
$40 standard form-factor ATX case (cheappie case picked up from a local vendor)
$15 Keyboard/Mouse (newegg generic special)
$5 Speakers (from who know where)
$8 Floppy
$40 XP Home COA (where do we get these?)
_____________
Take that VPR Matrix!.... $585

 

[Barnaby W. Füi]

optimistic: i'd take an intel board over an ecs board ANY day

anyways, for casual users that are buying a mid- or low-end machine, yes, retail most definitely is the cheapest way to go.

but in my case i'd never ever ever ever buy one (except apple )

first off there's the "windows tax" which i have no interest in paying.

then there's the case - i find the majority of computer cases ugly. give me the awesome black antec 1030 for a piddly $45, please

power supply - most are crap. i buy either sparkle or pc power & cooling.

cpu's - most retail machines have either P4's/P4 Celly's, both of which i couldn't justify buying. Too much money, too little performance. Duron 1.3's are $35 and 1700+'s are somewhere around $60. I dont need or want (to pay for) 2+ Ghz.

mobo - most retail machines have crap mobos, but in this case it's a moot point as you said it has an intel mobo.

mouse and keyboard - yeah, i'm a picky bastard

graphics card - i'll pass on the nvidia cards, give me a matrox g400 or g450

 

[optimistic]

But look at it this way. $800 can get you a pretty kick a$$ DIY system!

$96 Athlon XP 2100+ (1.736GHz) shipped from newegg
$20 Quality silent HSF/Fan
$120 2x 256MB of Basic Corsair PC2700 + tax from Fry's (last month special)
$90 a Seagate Barracuda IV 80GB HD, + tax from Fry's (ongoing special every week)
$37 a LiteOn 16x DVD-ROM,
$50 a Liteon 48/24/48 shipped from newegg/mwave (price from last week though)
$72 Radeon 8500le 64MB ddr shipped from newegg
$108 Epox 8RDA+ shipped
$82 Antec SX630 II w/ 300w Antec PSU shipped from directron
$30 MS Multimedia KB / Logitech MX300 + tax from staples
$24 Logitech Z340 +tax target deal 2 weeks ago
$8 Floppy
$40 XP Home COA (still don't know where to get this)
_____________
My total.... $777 shipped (+ tax on $264)

Beats that Bestbuy $800 half-way decent after rebate pre-built. And with this setup, you get more hdd/ vid/ cdrw/quality ram/better looking, sounding, feeling, performing for the same money. But no rebate check coming in 6-8 weeks of course, and still no support.

Are one of the rebates after applying to MSN service for 1 year? Why can't I just give it a rest? I still want to think DIY is still worth it. Hopefully!

edit: mx300 not mx500
edit2: sorry It's just automatic for me to call oem- POS even though I read your orignal post and got your point. I agree they are getting pretty good with the low prices and their progressively decent compoenents But I'm like BingBongWongFooey, I do this for the pretty cases!

 

[pm]

I had been too lazy to check the prices on the system using components and I'm surprised that it came out that low. I guess I haven't been keeping up with prices lately since what I have at home is fast enough and I haven't been excited enough by things to consider upgrading.

For what it's worth though, my point is that I didn't think what was inside was a POS. I thought it was a pretty halfway decent computer. They had an Athlon version and it was a bit cheaper than the Pentium 4 system that we bought.

Here's a link to the system. You can see a picture of the case - I personally thought it was pretty nice looking - if a little austere.

Thanks for taking the time to a price check on it, optimistic. I would have done it myself but my connection out here in the wilderness is a measley 19.8k.

Edit: I see that I was mistaken on the GeForce card. It's a GeForce 2 MX - not a 4...

 

[Darien]

agreed. that system isn't all that bad for the money.



they won't evar take me though! it's fun to build systems!



<--- just spent 1500 on a new system...i like my 17" lcd (sadly it was about 1/3 the cost of teh system )

 

[optimistic]

Originally posted by: pm
Here's a link to the system. You can see a picture of the case - I personally thought it was pretty nice looking - if a little austere.

The case doesn't look that bad.

Originally posted by: pm
Thanks for taking the time to a price check on it, optimistic. I would have done it myself but my connection out here in the wilderness is a measley 19.8k.

No prob! And thanks for the read. Gives me something to think about next time I recommend a comptuer.

Originally posted by: pm
Edit: I see that I was mistaken on the GeForce card. It's a GeForce 2 MX - not a 4...

Well, the other extras make up for the price difference of video cards.

Extras not mentioned like:
512MB 333MHz DDR memory. Intel RAID-ready motherboard. 6 high-speed USB 2.0 ports (2 front, 4 rear). IEEE 1394 ports (1 front, 1 rear). 40x12x40 CD-RW drive not 32x. 56k modem installed. Microsoft Works®6.0 installed.

Whew. They got us beat. I think. Or do they?:Q

 

[Siddhartha]

Originally posted by: optimistic
Well lets see...

$190 Pentium 2.4B,
$89 512MB DDR SDRAM,
$70 a 60GB HD,
$40 a 16x DVD-ROM,
$40 a fast CD-RW (32x as I recall),
$60 a separate PNY AGP GeForce 4
$100 Intel motherboard w/ integrated sound and LAN
$60 standard form-factor ATX case
$20 Keyboard/Mouse
$10 Speakers
$8 Floppy
$90 XP Home
_____________
My total.... $777

Bestbuy $800 - $150MIR = $650

Morale of story we lose, they win. And they got support too

I build my pcs because it is my hobby. But I recommend Dell et al. People can get a fast, powerful, and reliable system that comes with tech support for less than $1000.

My advice:
1. Check Dell's website.
2. Do not get a Celeron based system.
3. Do not get a P4 system with SDRAM.
4. Get at least 256 meg RAM preferably 512 meg
5. Get a 17" monitor
6. Get the largest hard drive that fits your budget.

 

[Siddhartha]

Originally posted by: optimistic
Wait we can beat them! Lets try a little harder.

$190 Pentium 2.4B, (retail for newegg)
$40 512MB DDR SDRAM, (Labeled wrong & after PM/MIR/Coupon)
$70 a 60GB HD, (Fry's HDD)
$37 a 16x DVD-ROM, (mwave)
$30 a fast CD-RW (32x as I recall), (Fry's special)
$50 a separate PNY AGP GeForce 4 (After some hunting)
$60 Intel motherboard w/ integrated sound and LAN (Going with ECS)
$40 standard form-factor ATX case (cheappie case picked up from a local vendor)
$15 Keyboard/Mouse (newegg generic special)
$5 Speakers (from who know where)
$8 Floppy
$40 XP Home COA (where do we get these?)

_____________
Take that VPR Matrix!.... $585

Does that include shipping?

 

[Uclagamer_99]

you forgot the psu in your costs

 

[Lonyo]

It can be better to build your own if you fit the following conditions:
You want to overclock
AND
You don't need a monitor, keyboard, etc

Other than that, usually it's better to get one from a store (unless you find some really hot deals on components)

 

[gplracer]

Building is better for a number of reasons.

1. Currently I have someone that wants to upgrade to Windows XP from 98. If They go out and buy Windows XP and do a fresh install they would lose all of the programs that came with the computer. Their Sony computer came with a lot too. According to the website the best option would be to do a restore then do and upgrade to Windows XP. All of this is a pain in the you know where.

2. Once their service runs out it is cheaper to have someone like me repair the computer for them. I can do it but it is easier working on computers that were built with no integrated parts. I like having a driver disk in front of me not a restore disk.

3. So you save a little money when you buy the computer if you purchase it from Best Buy. Do you really think a couple of years from now when it is time to upgrade that Compaq, Sony, and others want you to upgrade? They want you to buy a new computer. I just upgraded some ones computer by removing the bx motherboard and replacing it with a board that supports and Athlon XP and DDR ram. This is a much cheaper option for the user than buying another store computer.

4. Most of you on here know what components to put in a computer or what to look for. You are not the norm. Most people buy either too much computer or too little. It is better to build your own. If you do not have knowledge go to someone that does. I will say since I do this on the side for people that I am not the norm. I just charge to put the stuff together. I sit down with the people I am building a computer for and we go over what to buy and what they are going to use it for. They come to my house and order all the parts online with my help. Most of the local computer store charge outrageous price. If I had to pick between them and Best Buy, It would be Best Buy hands down!

 

[ProviaFan]

I always recommend Dells to "average" users (read: people who use AOL, think Gator is A Good Thing, etc.), since I hate doing free tech support for them. However, all of my systems @ home are custom, and I doubt that there will ever be brand-name computer under my control, except for an Apple (hopefully soon) or perhaps a SGI workstation someday (for the coolness factor ).

 

[Windogg]

Can't beat Dell, WorstBuy, CompUSSR, or CircuitSh!tty on price since the computers they sell are build with bulk OEM components at prices we can only dream about.

However, like auto manufacturers, the basic everyday systems are on razor thin margins while big fat overblown SUVs rake in the profits. Try adding a Radeon 9700 or GF4 Ti4600 to a $400 Dell and you get something like this: "Add 128MB ATI Radeon 9700 +$83649836429364293.

Windogg

 

[dullard]

Anytime you can get a hot deal (such as the once a month Dell hot deals) buying will be a heck of a lot cheaper than building. I got nearly that computer you listed (but add in their most expensive 17" monitor, remove the DVD drive, change memory to 384 MB DDR, and SB Live! instead of integrated) for $740 (shipping included) over three months ago from Dell. Back then the prices for a similar home built machine was reaching $1000. These good deals have been floating around for quite some time.

Those companies can buy parts in large quantities for far less than we can buy single pieces and the drastic drop in computer sales has disappated any profits that these stores can make on the basic computers. Thus it should be cheaper than we can build it for. They have to hope that the low $600 computer price lures customers in who then add in high profit upgrades (such as $200 Dell wanted to upgrade from my 384 MB DDR to 512 MB DDR). For those of us who really know computers, we'd never fall for that and just upgrade it ourselves. Especially since proprietary parts in these OEMs are going the way of the dinosaurs (some still exist but they are getting much more rare).

The problem is when you buy a computer that isn't a hot deal. That computer you listed will not be a good buy when that $150 rebate expires. In my experience, most buyers don't wait enough or search enough for those hot deals...

Edit: Windogg beat me to my point.

 

[Ilmater]

It's this simple:

If someone just wants a computer to check e-mail with, go to Dell. However, if they want to play current games on their system, then it will save them lots of money to build. The parts that are so cheap (because of bulk purchases) are GF4 MX's, GF2 MX's, and integrated graphics. Just think of how little extra it would cost to go from that system optimistic built to a true gaming rig. Those companies are out to make as much money as they can. They make all of their margins back on those that are trying to buy the "latest and greatest." I can build an absolute top-of-the-line computer right now for $1500. Find me a Dell or VPR that can beat that.

 

[compudog]

Originally posted by: Windogg
Can't beat Dell, WorstBuy, CompUSSR, or CircuitSh!tty on price since the computers they sell are build with bulk OEM components at prices we can only dream about. However, like auto manufacturers, the basic everyday systems are on razor thin margins while big fat overblown SUVs rake in the profits. Try adding a Radeon 9700 or GF4 Ti4600 to a $400 Dell and you get something like this: "Add 128MB ATI Radeon 9700 +$83649836429364293. Windogg

LOL! But true. I often refer the price consious consumer to the above. I can't compete with these guys. All I can do is value-add in home set-up, training, and service. This I explain up-front and this is why they are paying more going with me. Trying to compete on hardware is ridiculous. It really can't be done. Sell your services.

 

[Lonyo]

It's worth buying a pre-made machine if it's a basic system you're after, if the quality and speed of the components goes up (faster processor, more RAM, better gfx card) it can soon be cheaper to build your own. Cheap PC's are best done by the likes of Dell, fast, powerful ones can be much cheaper if you make your own.

 

[dullard]

Originally posted by: Ilmater
They make all of their margins back on those that are trying to buy the "latest and greatest." I can build an absolute top-of-the-line computer right now for $1500. Find me a Dell or VPR that can beat that.

Right they make all their money on the latest and greatest. But that is why you get the base model at Dell and plop in the upgrades yourself. For example, take the base 3.06 GHz Dell computer:
3.06 GHz P4 with hyperthreading
256 MB PC2700 DDR
30 GB HD
Win XP Home
64 MB GeForce4 MX
16x DVD
mouse, keyboard, SB Live!, speakers, etc.
Current shipped price: $1330.

Then sell the GeForce4 MX for $30 and get a Radeon 9700 Pro for $280.
Plop in another 256 MB DDR for $50.
Total shipped price is $1630 - about $100 more than the $1500 you stated (I don't know if that included shipping).

But the key is this isn't a Dell hot deal. Frequently you can get a $250 rebate and free shipping on the same computer. If you wait until that happens, the total price for a great gaming computer is $1381 - over $100 savings from what you said you could build.

 

[Ilmater]

But Dullard, down the road you won't be able to upgrade that system. Have you ever tried to upgrade a Dell? It won't happen. Special PSUs with special mobos, etc. It's cheaper to buy yourself and sloooowly upgrade pieces that get old. You can't do that with Dell.

 

[dullard]

Originally posted by: Ilmater
But Dullard, down the road you won't be able to upgrade that system. Have you ever tried to upgrade a Dell? It won't happen. Special PSUs with special mobos, etc. It's cheaper to buy yourself and sloooowly upgrade pieces that get old.

What in that Dell can't you upgrade? Sure Dell previously used proprietary power supplies, but some people claimed that Dell stopped that when the P4 came out, and no one on this forum has been able to deny that. What is left, you can upgrade everything as far as I can see - HD, memory, video card, optical drives, power supply, sound cards, speakers, mouse, keyboard, even the case with a bit of work, etc. The only thing that would be difficult is to replace the whole motherboard. But even that is possible.

Look here: "In the mid 90s the industry moved to a higher use of 3.3V motherboard components. Dell engineers designed a connector that supported the increased use of 3.3V current which differed from the industry proposed designs. The Situation Today: All Dell desktop motherboards now in production support the industry standard ATX connector"