Results of Minneapolis concealed carry law

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: daishi5

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: daishi5

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: her209
That's interesting. I did a quick check of the homicide numbers using the statistics found here

The numbers are homicides are YTD as of Mar 31 of the corresponding year:

Year
2009 3
2008 8
2007 14
2006 14
2005 14
2004 9
2003 7
2002 9

Hmm, those numbers don't really jive with the numbers stated in the article. And it could just be that there were other measures taken by law enforcement to contribute to the lower crime rates. NYC did quite a bit to decrease crime and clean up the city in the last 12 years and none of it had anything to do with allowing citizens to carry weapons.

At any rate, I wouldn't dwell too much on a period of 3 months. Let's see where they're at in a couple years.

Amazing, just purely amazing. We have seen 48 states experience a drop in crime after CCW's have been passed. When other countries like Australia, England, and Canada pass gun control laws they see either a rise in crime or in Canada's case no change in their crime rate. I admit we CANNOT completely prove that these laws lowered crime, but honestly look at it. We pass CCW law, crime goes down or at the very least stays the same, 48, out of 48 times. They (other countries) pass gun control laws, crime goes up. I know we cannot prove that gun control and ccw were the cause of these, but when every country that passes strict gun control fails to see a decrease in their crime rate, and almost always sees a rise; when we give more gun freedom and see no crime increase, and usually see crime decrease, how can people still believe it works? But no, I still get to see the IL legislature every year tell us that if we were free to carry firearms we would all go on murderous rampages and that we are not to be trusted because we would make the streets run with blood as we re-enacted the wild west all across the state.

Edit: Reading their annual report from the earlier link
CRIME 2008 2007 1yr % Chg 2008 2006 2yr % Chg
Homicide 39 47 -17.02% 39 57 -31.58%
Rape 392 475 -17.47% 392 477 -17.82%
Robbery 2066 2560 -19.30% 2066 3081 -32.94%
Aggravated Assault 2387 2579 -7.44% 2387 2870 -16.83%
Total Violent Crimes 4884 5661 -13.73% 4884 6485 -24.69%

Those are awesome numbers, even if we don't know if CCW caused any of it, I think they should keep doing everything they are doing, because messing with something that works that well is stupid.

Did you quote me by mistake? Because you've addressed exactly zero of the points I made in my post.

I removed a few of my comments to be more civil. The point of the article is that the city did not experience more crime, that is true from the statistics, crime did not go up. The second part was directed at your comments, that maybe it was something else that did it, and my frustration with that argument. Every time a law comes up that will increase gun rights, the same fear mongering comes out, more people will die. However, when less people will die, then it must have been the police, it could not have possibly been private citizens having power. You make an argument that it might not have been the CCW but you have no other ideas what might have caused it. I am certain that CCW could not be the only cause, but could you just admit that in this case there is good circumstantial evidence that it decreased the crime rate?

Edit, and as for the 3 years, we have plenty of states with more than 10 years of CCW, their crime rates have stayed down, so I am not sure how much difference you believe 3 years could make. How many years should we wait before we admit it this is not harmful to the general population?

You still haven't addressed the point I made about NYC and the steady decrease in crime there because of increased Police presence. 12 years of steady improvement, this is a fact! And I do have very good knowledge of what caused it in NYC as it is well documented.

All I said was that MAYBE there was another reason for the lower crime rates Minneapolis is experiencing that have absolutely nothing to do with CCW laws. I don't think there is any reason to doubt that this could be a possibility. The article is obviously slanted to get you believe the conclusions they've drawn but to me it looks more like hack journalism.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

You still haven't addressed the point I made about NYC and the steady decrease in crime there because of increased Police presence. 12 years of steady improvement, this is a fact! And I do have very good knowledge of what caused it in NYC as it is well documented.

All I said was that MAYBE there was another reason for the lower crime that Minneapolis is experiencing that has absolutely nothing to do with CCW laws. I don't think there is any reason to doubt that this could be a possibiliy. The article is obviously slanted to get you believe the conclusions they've drawn but to me it looks more like hack journalism.

Increased police presence probably did help NYC out quite a bit but it should be noted that nationwide violent crime has been falling steadily since the mid 90s.

I'm personally for concealed carry as it has never been proven to actually cause murders and certainly not the wild west havoc the anti-gun groups promise it will rain down upon those who enact the laws. CCW holders are by far the most strictly regulated firearm owners in the country with the possible exceptions of some FFL holders and those who want to buy automatic firearms.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Farang

Originally posted by: daishi5

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: her209
That's interesting. I did a quick check of the homicide numbers using the statistics found here

The numbers are homicides are YTD as of Mar 31 of the corresponding year:

Year
2009 3
2008 8
2007 14
2006 14
2005 14
2004 9
2003 7
2002 9

Hmm, those numbers don't really jive with the numbers stated in the article. And it could just be that there were other measures taken by law enforcement to contribute to the lower crime rates. NYC did quite a bit to decrease crime and clean up the city in the last 12 years and none of it had anything to do with allowing citizens to carry weapons.

At any rate, I wouldn't dwell too much on a period of 3 months. Let's see where they're at in a couple years.

Amazing, just purely amazing. We have seen 48 states experience a drop in crime after CCW's have been passed. When other countries like Australia, England, and Canada pass gun control laws they see either a rise in crime or in Canada's case no change in their crime rate. I admit we CANNOT completely prove that these laws lowered crime, but honestly look at it. We pass CCW law, crime goes down or at the very least stays the same, 48, out of 48 times. They (other countries) pass gun control laws, crime goes up. I know we cannot prove that gun control and ccw were the cause of these, but when every country that passes strict gun control fails to see a decrease in their crime rate, and almost always sees a rise; when we give more gun freedom and see no crime increase, and usually see crime decrease, how can people still believe it works? But no, I still get to see the IL legislature every year tell us that if we were free to carry firearms we would all go on murderous rampages and that we are not to be trusted because we would make the streets run with blood as we re-enacted the wild west all across the state.

Edit: Reading their annual report from the earlier link
CRIME 2008 2007 1yr % Chg 2008 2006 2yr % Chg
Homicide 39 47 -17.02% 39 57 -31.58%
Rape 392 475 -17.47% 392 477 -17.82%
Robbery 2066 2560 -19.30% 2066 3081 -32.94%
Aggravated Assault 2387 2579 -7.44% 2387 2870 -16.83%
Total Violent Crimes 4884 5661 -13.73% 4884 6485 -24.69%

Those are awesome numbers, even if we don't know if CCW caused any of it, I think they should keep doing everything they are doing, because messing with something that works that well is stupid.

So if we can compare different countries can we also look at the murder rate?

No, because that fubars the whole argument.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

You still haven't addressed the point I made about NYC and the steady decrease in crime there because of increased Police presence. 12 years of steady improvement, this is a fact! And I do have very good knowledge of what caused it in NYC as it is well documented.

All I said was that MAYBE there was another reason for the lower crime that Minneapolis is experiencing that has absolutely nothing to do with CCW laws. I don't think there is any reason to doubt that this could be a possibiliy. The article is obviously slanted to get you believe the conclusions they've drawn but to me it looks more like hack journalism.

Increased police presence probably did help NYC out quite a bit but it should be noted that nationwide violent crime has been falling steadily since the mid 90s.

I'm personally for concealed carry as it has never been proven to actually cause murders and certainly not the wild west havoc the anti-gun groups promise it will rain down upon those who enact the laws. CCW holders are by far the most strictly regulated firearm owners in the country with the possible exceptions of some FFL holders and those who want to buy automatic firearms.

Fair enough.

I started getting into guns when I was in my early 20s, living in Los Angeles and would have loved to have a CCW but it's nearly impossible to get one there and quite honestly, as I've gotten older and visited other parts of the world, I've found that quick thinking and being aware of what is going on around you generally serves me better than having a gun on my hip ever would have. I still own a number of guns and enjoy taking them to the range to put holes in paper but I really have no desire to carry one everyday.

And I do question the motives of some people who own guns and seem to think they are the best solution to solve our problems.

 

[NeoV]

While I'm generally perceived to be anti-gun on these forums, I have no problem with concealed carry laws - I think 'open carry' is a bad idea, but concealed carry is ok - in fact most of the people with actual permits for concealed carry are not a part of the gun problems we have.

While this data doesn't show an increase, I'm not sure a decrease of 5 or 11 compared to the prior years, in a population base of ~1M people, is statistically significant at all - clearly other steps were taken after the 'high' violence rate in 2005 to curb violence - some of the same steps used in NYC - which, as mentioned several times here, has seen 12 years of steadily declining violence.

Have to do it though - the overall levels of gun violence in this country are still completely unacceptable.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: NeoV
While I'm generally perceived to be anti-gun on these forums, I have no problem with concealed carry laws - I think 'open carry' is a bad idea, but concealed carry is ok - in fact most of the people with actual permits for concealed carry are not a part of the gun problems we have.

While this data doesn't show an increase, I'm not sure a decrease of 5 or 11 compared to the prior years, in a population base of ~1M people, is statistically significant at all - clearly other steps were taken after the 'high' violence rate in 2005 to curb violence - some of the same steps used in NYC - which, as mentioned several times here, has seen 12 years of steadily declining violence.

Have to do it though - the overall levels of gun violence in this country are still completely unacceptable.

Agreed, and I find it disturbing that "law abiding" gun owners promote keeping loopholes in the law that allow basically unregulated firearms sales between private parties. I think that is completely irresponsible and gives gun owners a bad name...but I don't want to derail this thread.