Results of Minneapolis concealed carry law

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
0
0
As usual the facts dont entirely support the frothing at the mouth gun grabbers claims and screams of fear. The trend, as it exists today, is to loudly and repeatedly proclaim the terrible doom and gloom that shall spring forth when a state or city passes a concealed carry law.

And in fact that applies to any pro-gun movement. Expiration of the AWB? The streets will run red with blood! Concealed carry in national parks? The streams will run red with blood!

Pro gun legislation? Yeah. Red streets, terrible crime sprees and dead children everywhere.

It seems, once again, the facts simply dont support this. Minneapolis has seen a year on year decrease in crimes of about every type since the passage of Concealed Carry laws. Is this due to the law itself? Perhaps, but certainly it does play a positive role in that trend.

Article

Shocker: Violent Crimes In Minneapolis Plummet After Concealed Carry Law Passed

The Minneapolis Star-Tribune has an interesting article about violent crime plummeting in the city:


Violent crimes, most notably, homicides, have been plummeting in Minneapolis during the past two years, according to statistics released today by the city?s police department.


Between January 1 and Monday, only three homicides had occurred in the city, compared to 11 during the same period in 2008 and 18 a year earlier.


It?s a far cry from 1995, when a record 97 homicides saddled the city with national infamy when a journalist dubbed it ?Murderapolis.?


Drops in reported rapes, robberies and aggravated assaults also have been recorded during the two year period, but those declines have been less dramatic.


Overall, violent crime has dropped more than 25 percent since 2007 and nearly 18 percent in the past year alone.


In both 2007 and 2008, the city enjoyed double-digit percentage declines in violent crimes. ...


Total property crimes also have dropped, down more than 11 percent to date, compared to last year, and 23 percent since 2007.



Note that 2005 was the high water mark for murder and violent crime in the city. Now, public officials in the city have their (rather vague) explanations for what caused this:


?This is fantastic, the result of a community-wide effort to make this a safe place to call home,? said Mayor R.T. Rybak. ?But we?ve still got a long way to go.?


Rybak attributed the continuing decline in violent crime to closer working relationships between the police department and neighborhood-level community organizations. ?To keep it down, we have to have deeper connections between the police and the people they serve,? he said.



I?m not even sure what all that means, but I think there?s a better explanation for what?s going on here. The peak for murder and violence in Minneapolis was 2005. And what happened in 2005? Why, the Minnesota Personal Protection Act took effect.


The Personal Protection Act, which took effect May 25, 2005, authorizes Public Safety Commissioner Michael Campion to create new training guidelines for any organization or entity wishing to provide firearm training to individuals for the purpose of obtaining a permit to carry a handgun. ...


Minnesota State Statute 624.714 allows qualified individuals to obtain a permit to carry a pistol in the state. Permits are issued by all county sheriffs in Minnesota.



It would probably kill the liberals at the Star-Tribune to admit that violent crime and murder is going down even as the number of people bearing arms goes up, but that doesn?t mean it?s not the truth.
 

NoStateofMind

Diamond Member
Oct 14, 2005
9,711
6
76
The Federal Governments job is to protect the Constitutional Rights of its Citizens. A State banning guns is in direct contrast to that right.

EDIT: Looks like they are offering concealed carry licenses. Which is good, more states should offer this.
 

halik

Lifer
Oct 10, 2000
25,696
1
0
Correlation != causation

I'd like to see the real stats for that and what exactly did they enact in 2005. At the very least it does put end to the CWP = high homicide rate argument.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
So if any of you saw a couple of Hells Angels carrying guns out in the open in your Neighborhood you wouldn't call the Police? Keep in mind they have the same rights as you.
 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
0
0
Originally posted by: halik
Correlation != causation

I'd like to see the real stats for that and what exactly did they enact in 2005. At the very least it does put end to the CWP = high homicide rate argument.

Agree that correlation is not causation. I stated that (quite poorly in retrospect). But to say that the passage of CCW didnt play a role in it is simply ignoring facts as previous trends elsewhere substantiate the claim the CCW helps in lowering crime.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Yes again it has been proven that C&C laws dont increase crime and there arent running gun battles between avg joe citizens over a parking space.

I love it when gun grabbers make those ridiculous claims and appeals to emotion only to have the fact blow up in their face over and over. They discredited themselves on this issue and the public has recognized it and are moving to fix the situation by allowing more liberal gun laws for law abiding citizens.
 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
0
0
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
So if any of you saw a couple of Hells Angels carrying guns out in the open in your Neighborhood you wouldn't call the Police? Keep in mind they have the same rights as you.

Is Open Carry legal in the area I see them? If yes then no. If no then, well, no.

Now if I'm in a biker bar with different gangs in it and 3 Hells Angels walk in OC'ing you can damn well bet its a "Check please!" moment for me.
 
Aug 23, 2000
15,509
1
81
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
So if any of you saw a couple of Hells Angels carrying guns out in the open in your Neighborhood you wouldn't call the Police? Keep in mind they have the same rights as you.

No, why would I? They leave me alone, I leave them alone. Besides, all my neighbors have seen me walking through my yard with guns, and the cops have never been called on me. The only time the cops show up to our neighborhood is when the guy down the street gets drunk and yells for his dog at 3 in the morning.
 
Aug 23, 2000
15,509
1
81
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
So if any of you saw a couple of Hells Angels carrying guns out in the open in your Neighborhood you wouldn't call the Police? Keep in mind they have the same rights as you.

Is Open Carry legal in the area I see them? If yes then no. If no then, well, no.

Now if I'm in a biker bar with different gangs in it and 3 Hells Angels walk in OC'ing you can damn well bet its a "Check please!" moment for me.

Duck and cover.
 

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
56,336
11
0
That's interesting. I did a quick check of the homicide numbers using the statistics found here

The numbers are homicides are YTD as of Mar 31 of the corresponding year:

Year
2009 3
2008 8
2007 14
2006 14
2005 14
2004 9
2003 7
2002 9
Breakdown by month:

Year Jan Feb Mar
2009 2 0 1
2008 0 3 5
2007 6 3 5
2006 4 3 7
2005 3 5 6
2004 2 5 2
2003 3 2 2
2002 3 4 2
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,574
972
126
Originally posted by: her209
That's interesting. I did a quick check of the homicide numbers using the statistics found here

The numbers are homicides are YTD as of Mar 31 of the corresponding year:

Year
2009 3
2008 8
2007 14
2006 14
2005 14
2004 9
2003 7
2002 9

Hmm, those numbers don't really jive with the numbers stated in the article. And it could just be that there were other measures taken by law enforcement to contribute to the lower crime rates. NYC did quite a bit to decrease crime and clean up the city in the last 12 years and none of it had anything to do with allowing citizens to carry weapons.

At any rate, I wouldn't dwell too much on a period of 3 months. Let's see where they're at in a couple years.
 

daishi5

Golden Member
Feb 17, 2005
1,196
0
76
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Originally posted by: her209
That's interesting. I did a quick check of the homicide numbers using the statistics found here

The numbers are homicides are YTD as of Mar 31 of the corresponding year:

Year
2009 3
2008 8
2007 14
2006 14
2005 14
2004 9
2003 7
2002 9

Hmm, those numbers don't really jive with the numbers stated in the article. And it could just be that there were other measures taken by law enforcement to contribute to the lower crime rates. NYC did quite a bit to decrease crime and clean up the city in the last 12 years and none of it had anything to do with allowing citizens to carry weapons.

At any rate, I wouldn't dwell too much on a period of 3 months. Let's see where they're at in a couple years.

Amazing, just purely amazing. We have seen 48 states experience a drop in crime after CCW's have been passed. When other countries like Australia, England, and Canada pass gun control laws they see either a rise in crime or in Canada's case no change in their crime rate. I admit we CANNOT completely prove that these laws lowered crime, but honestly look at it. We pass CCW law, crime goes down or at the very least stays the same, 48, out of 48 times. They (other countries) pass gun control laws, crime goes up. I know we cannot prove that gun control and ccw were the cause of these, but when every country that passes strict gun control fails to see a decrease in their crime rate, and almost always sees a rise; when we give more gun freedom and see no crime increase, and usually see crime decrease, how can people still believe it works? But no, I still get to see the IL legislature every year tell us that if we were free to carry firearms we would all go on murderous rampages and that we are not to be trusted because we would make the streets run with blood as we re-enacted the wild west all across the state.

Edit: Reading their annual report from the earlier link
CRIME 2008 2007 1yr % Chg 2008 2006 2yr % Chg
Homicide 39 47 -17.02% 39 57 -31.58%
Rape 392 475 -17.47% 392 477 -17.82%
Robbery 2066 2560 -19.30% 2066 3081 -32.94%
Aggravated Assault 2387 2579 -7.44% 2387 2870 -16.83%
Total Violent Crimes 4884 5661 -13.73% 4884 6485 -24.69%

Those are awesome numbers, even if we don't know if CCW caused any of it, I think they should keep doing everything they are doing, because messing with something that works that well is stupid.
 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
0
0
Originally posted by: Atreus21
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
funny post

correlation =/= causation

Unless, of course, you like what you hear.

I think you meant to say "Unless of course you're smart enough to look at previous cases as well as this one".
Seems some are not. Not that this is altogether suprising to me.
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
2
0
In the first 3 posts I saw the term "gun grabbers" used... the fact that 2 people used this odd phrase has me thinking that it is some wacko term used by fringe groups to instill fear into people.

This is and never will be a real issue. Just another wedge issue used to scare and fear people into voting. Looks like it hooked 2 out of the first 3 posters!
 

Farang

Lifer
Jul 7, 2003
10,913
3
0
Originally posted by: daishi5
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Originally posted by: her209
That's interesting. I did a quick check of the homicide numbers using the statistics found here

The numbers are homicides are YTD as of Mar 31 of the corresponding year:

Year
2009 3
2008 8
2007 14
2006 14
2005 14
2004 9
2003 7
2002 9

Hmm, those numbers don't really jive with the numbers stated in the article. And it could just be that there were other measures taken by law enforcement to contribute to the lower crime rates. NYC did quite a bit to decrease crime and clean up the city in the last 12 years and none of it had anything to do with allowing citizens to carry weapons.

At any rate, I wouldn't dwell too much on a period of 3 months. Let's see where they're at in a couple years.

Amazing, just purely amazing. We have seen 48 states experience a drop in crime after CCW's have been passed. When other countries like Australia, England, and Canada pass gun control laws they see either a rise in crime or in Canada's case no change in their crime rate. I admit we CANNOT completely prove that these laws lowered crime, but honestly look at it. We pass CCW law, crime goes down or at the very least stays the same, 48, out of 48 times. They (other countries) pass gun control laws, crime goes up. I know we cannot prove that gun control and ccw were the cause of these, but when every country that passes strict gun control fails to see a decrease in their crime rate, and almost always sees a rise; when we give more gun freedom and see no crime increase, and usually see crime decrease, how can people still believe it works? But no, I still get to see the IL legislature every year tell us that if we were free to carry firearms we would all go on murderous rampages and that we are not to be trusted because we would make the streets run with blood as we re-enacted the wild west all across the state.

Edit: Reading their annual report from the earlier link
CRIME 2008 2007 1yr % Chg 2008 2006 2yr % Chg
Homicide 39 47 -17.02% 39 57 -31.58%
Rape 392 475 -17.47% 392 477 -17.82%
Robbery 2066 2560 -19.30% 2066 3081 -32.94%
Aggravated Assault 2387 2579 -7.44% 2387 2870 -16.83%
Total Violent Crimes 4884 5661 -13.73% 4884 6485 -24.69%

Those are awesome numbers, even if we don't know if CCW caused any of it, I think they should keep doing everything they are doing, because messing with something that works that well is stupid.

So if we can compare different countries can we also look at the murder rate?
 

Kelvrick

Lifer
Feb 14, 2001
18,422
5
81
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
In the first 3 posts I saw the term "gun grabbers" used... the fact that 2 people used this odd phrase has me thinking that it is some wacko term used by fringe groups to instill fear into people.

This is and never will be a real issue. Just another wedge issue used to scare and fear people into voting. Looks like it hooked 2 out of the first 3 posters!

How is it not an issue of making it harder for law-abiding citizens to buy and carry firearms? In California, one of the worst states, I cannot buy the majority of firearm models because they lack features that mean absolutely nothing. Loaded chamber indicator, one of the basic rules, the gun is ALWAYS loaded, treat it as such.

Magazine release safety where the gun won't fire if the magazine is out of it. I'm between magazine changes and I pull the trigger, I want it to fire. Two more basic rule,s always keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot and always be sure of where it is pointed and what is around/behind where you are pointing it.

I have to wait 10 days in order to bring home a firearm I have already paid for. Why? So I can cool down? I already own like 7 other guns, but I really want to do something stupid with the one I just purchased.

I cannot carry concealed around my neighborhood because it is illegal and it is hard as fuck to get a permit in most metropolitan areas. Will that stop someone intent on murder/rape/assault with a firearm? Those things are illegal but I'm sure he won't carry a firearm because he knows it is bad to do so.

The 50bmg and is banned here in California. That really reduced the amount of crime that used to be committed with a 50bmg rifle.
 

Jschmuck2

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2005
5,623
3
81
Originally posted by: Kelvrick
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
In the first 3 posts I saw the term "gun grabbers" used... the fact that 2 people used this odd phrase has me thinking that it is some wacko term used by fringe groups to instill fear into people.

This is and never will be a real issue. Just another wedge issue used to scare and fear people into voting. Looks like it hooked 2 out of the first 3 posters!

How is it not an issue of making it harder for law-abiding citizens to buy and carry firearms? In California, one of the worst states, I cannot buy the majority of firearm models because they lack features that mean absolutely nothing. Loaded chamber indicator, one of the basic rules, the gun is ALWAYS loaded, treat it as such.

Magazine release safety where the gun won't fire if the magazine is out of it. I'm between magazine changes and I pull the trigger, I want it to fire. Two more basic rule,s always keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot and always be sure of where it is pointed and what is around/behind where you are pointing it.

I have to wait 10 days in order to bring home a firearm I have already paid for. Why? So I can cool down? I already own like 7 other guns, but I really want to do something stupid with the one I just purchased.

I cannot carry concealed around my neighborhood because it is illegal and it is hard as fuck to get a permit in most metropolitan areas. Will that stop someone intent on murder/rape/assault with a firearm? Those things are illegal but I'm sure he won't carry a firearm because he knows it is bad to do so.

The 50bmg and is banned here in California. That really reduced the amount of crime that used to be committed with a 50bmg rifle.

Man - you should move.
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,574
972
126
Originally posted by: daishi5
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Originally posted by: her209
That's interesting. I did a quick check of the homicide numbers using the statistics found here

The numbers are homicides are YTD as of Mar 31 of the corresponding year:

Year
2009 3
2008 8
2007 14
2006 14
2005 14
2004 9
2003 7
2002 9

Hmm, those numbers don't really jive with the numbers stated in the article. And it could just be that there were other measures taken by law enforcement to contribute to the lower crime rates. NYC did quite a bit to decrease crime and clean up the city in the last 12 years and none of it had anything to do with allowing citizens to carry weapons.

At any rate, I wouldn't dwell too much on a period of 3 months. Let's see where they're at in a couple years.

Amazing, just purely amazing. We have seen 48 states experience a drop in crime after CCW's have been passed. When other countries like Australia, England, and Canada pass gun control laws they see either a rise in crime or in Canada's case no change in their crime rate. I admit we CANNOT completely prove that these laws lowered crime, but honestly look at it. We pass CCW law, crime goes down or at the very least stays the same, 48, out of 48 times. They (other countries) pass gun control laws, crime goes up. I know we cannot prove that gun control and ccw were the cause of these, but when every country that passes strict gun control fails to see a decrease in their crime rate, and almost always sees a rise; when we give more gun freedom and see no crime increase, and usually see crime decrease, how can people still believe it works? But no, I still get to see the IL legislature every year tell us that if we were free to carry firearms we would all go on murderous rampages and that we are not to be trusted because we would make the streets run with blood as we re-enacted the wild west all across the state.

Edit: Reading their annual report from the earlier link
CRIME 2008 2007 1yr % Chg 2008 2006 2yr % Chg
Homicide 39 47 -17.02% 39 57 -31.58%
Rape 392 475 -17.47% 392 477 -17.82%
Robbery 2066 2560 -19.30% 2066 3081 -32.94%
Aggravated Assault 2387 2579 -7.44% 2387 2870 -16.83%
Total Violent Crimes 4884 5661 -13.73% 4884 6485 -24.69%

Those are awesome numbers, even if we don't know if CCW caused any of it, I think they should keep doing everything they are doing, because messing with something that works that well is stupid.

Did you quote me by mistake? Because you've addressed exactly zero of the points I made in my post.
 

daishi5

Golden Member
Feb 17, 2005
1,196
0
76
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Originally posted by: daishi5
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Originally posted by: her209
That's interesting. I did a quick check of the homicide numbers using the statistics found here

The numbers are homicides are YTD as of Mar 31 of the corresponding year:

Year
2009 3
2008 8
2007 14
2006 14
2005 14
2004 9
2003 7
2002 9

Hmm, those numbers don't really jive with the numbers stated in the article. And it could just be that there were other measures taken by law enforcement to contribute to the lower crime rates. NYC did quite a bit to decrease crime and clean up the city in the last 12 years and none of it had anything to do with allowing citizens to carry weapons.

At any rate, I wouldn't dwell too much on a period of 3 months. Let's see where they're at in a couple years.

Amazing, just purely amazing. We have seen 48 states experience a drop in crime after CCW's have been passed. When other countries like Australia, England, and Canada pass gun control laws they see either a rise in crime or in Canada's case no change in their crime rate. I admit we CANNOT completely prove that these laws lowered crime, but honestly look at it. We pass CCW law, crime goes down or at the very least stays the same, 48, out of 48 times. They (other countries) pass gun control laws, crime goes up. I know we cannot prove that gun control and ccw were the cause of these, but when every country that passes strict gun control fails to see a decrease in their crime rate, and almost always sees a rise; when we give more gun freedom and see no crime increase, and usually see crime decrease, how can people still believe it works? But no, I still get to see the IL legislature every year tell us that if we were free to carry firearms we would all go on murderous rampages and that we are not to be trusted because we would make the streets run with blood as we re-enacted the wild west all across the state.

Edit: Reading their annual report from the earlier link
CRIME 2008 2007 1yr % Chg 2008 2006 2yr % Chg
Homicide 39 47 -17.02% 39 57 -31.58%
Rape 392 475 -17.47% 392 477 -17.82%
Robbery 2066 2560 -19.30% 2066 3081 -32.94%
Aggravated Assault 2387 2579 -7.44% 2387 2870 -16.83%
Total Violent Crimes 4884 5661 -13.73% 4884 6485 -24.69%

Those are awesome numbers, even if we don't know if CCW caused any of it, I think they should keep doing everything they are doing, because messing with something that works that well is stupid.

Did you quote me by mistake? Because you've addressed exactly zero of the points I made in my post.

I removed a few of my comments to be more civil. The point of the article is that the city did not experience more crime, that is true from the statistics, crime did not go up. The second part was directed at your comments, that maybe it was something else that did it, and my frustration with that argument. Every time a law comes up that will increase gun rights, the same fear mongering comes out, more people will die. However, when less people will die, then it must have been the police, it could not have possibly been private citizens having power. You make an argument that it might not have been the CCW but you have no other ideas what might have caused it. I am certain that CCW could not be the only cause, but could you just admit that in this case there is good circumstantial evidence that it decreased the crime rate?

Edit, and as for the 3 years, we have plenty of states with more than 10 years of CCW, their crime rates have stayed down, so I am not sure how much difference you believe 3 years could make. How many years should we wait before we admit it this is not harmful to the general population?
 
Dec 30, 2004
12,553
2
76
Atlanta has recently introduced concealed carry laws too, and our gun related crime has decreased. Nobody's willing to try to mug you anymore, because people are carrying.
 

skyking

Lifer
Nov 21, 2001
22,745
5,903
146
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
So if any of you saw a couple of Hells Angels carrying guns out in the open in your Neighborhood you wouldn't call the Police? Keep in mind they have the same rights as you.

Is Open Carry legal in the area I see them? If yes then no. If no then, well, no.

Now if I'm in a biker bar with different gangs in it and 3 Hells Angels walk in OC'ing you can damn well bet its a "Check please!" moment for me.

I'm thinking "good luck and keep the change":)