Restoring The Draft? Govt. Report Says 'Bad Idea'

jpeyton

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Aug 23, 2003
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By MARK THOMPSON/WASHINGTON

Even as there's talk inside the Pentagon of extending the troop surge in Iraq well into 2008, the U.S. military remains in a vise, crushed between the demands of wars in Iraq and Afghanistan that have made recruiting more difficult. Right now, there are only two real ways to extend or even increase the surge: call up more reservists - always tough to do in an election year - or extend active-duty combat tours from the current morale-wrecking 15 months to an even more painful 18 months. But Marine General Peter Pace, outgoing chairman of the Joint Chiefs, reassured GIs in Afghanistan this week that 18-month combat tours are not, as has been rumored, in their future. "An 18-month tour has zero, zero, none, nada, squat, nothing, no validity, OK?" he said. "I want to make sure you got that."

So then what about the third, most controversial option - is it time to reinstitute the draft? That option has a certain appeal as the Army fell short of its active-duty recruiting goal for June by about 15%. It is the second consecutive month the service's enlistment effort has slipped as public discontent grows over the war in Iraq.

Bringing back mandatory service has been the refrain of many who want to put the brakes on the Iraq war; if every young man is suddenly a potential grunt on his way to Baghdad, the thinking goes, the war would end rather quickly. It's also an argument made by those who are uneasy that the burden of this war is being unfairly shouldered by the 1.4-million-strong U.S. military and no one else. But a new report from the Congressional Budget Office this week makes clear that resuming the draft would be no panacea.

The report, requested by Rep. John Murtha, D-Penn., chairman of the defense subcommittee of the House Appropriations Committee, says that drafting people could make it easier for the Army to reach its 2012 goal of 547,000 soldiers. It might also save some money if Congress opted to pay draftees less than volunteers. But the downside, the report claims, would be a less effective fighting force, thanks to a sudden influx of draftees who would remain in uniform for much shorter spells than today's all-volunteer soldiers.

"Usually, greater accumulated knowledge and skills come with increased experience," the report notes. "Because most draftees leave after completing a two-year obligation, a draft might affect the services' ability to perform those functions efficiently." To maintain the same capability, the CBO suggests, the Army might have to grow, which could eliminate any savings. On the other hand, increased training costs for draftees - with less time in uniform, more have to be trained - could be offset by cuts in advertising and bonuses now used to entice volunteer recruits.

The report says that while 91% of last year's recruits were high school graduates, only 80% of U.S. residents aged 18 to 24 have attained that level of education. And high-school graduates, the military says, make better soldiers than dropouts. The CBO, which does not make recommendations but only charts options for lawmakers, estimates that somewhere between 27,000 and 165,000 would be drafted each year. That relative small slice - some 2 million males turn 18 each year - could resurrect the problems seen in the Vietnam era when deferments and friendly draft boards kept some well-connected young men out of uniform. Under current law, women could not be drafted.

If it doesn't make military or economic sense to launch the draft, what about the notion of fairness? Critics have claimed that minorities are over-represented in the all-volunteer military because they have fewer options in the civilian world. The CBO disputes that, saying that "members of the armed forces are racially and ethnically diverse." African Americans accounted for 13% of active-duty recruits in 2005, just under their 14% share of 17-to-49-year-olds in the overall U.S. population. And minorities are not being used as cannon fodder. "Data on fatalities indicate that minorities are not being killed [in Iraq and Afghanistan] at greater rates than their representation in the force," the study says. "Rather, fatalities of white service members have been higher than their representation in the force," in large part because whites are over-represented in the military's combat, as opposed to support, jobs.

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What the report doesn't consider is that re-instituting the draft would be political suicide for anyone who supported it, which is why I think it's never been seriously discussed until now.

But with Bush unwilling to remove our troops from the conflict, and all signs pointing to a long military occupation of Iraq, the latest Army recruiting numbers are cause for concern. The shortfall in recruiting numbers will accumulate over the next year as the bloody 'troop surge' continues with no avail.

The most unfortunate part is the compromising position our armed services find themselves in.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
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I cannot tell where you stand on this issue. Are you personally for, or against, re-instituting the draft?
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
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I support the draft, so long as college/money/national guard can't worm you out of the war.

We had a draft in WW2, look how that ended :) Vietnam I won't get into, as it was a proxy game between superpowers, and truly unwinnable under any reasonable assessment.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
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Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Conscript armies don't really work. Highly trained elite volunteer armies are the way to go.

I see where you're coming from, and for many missions, I totally agree. Look at Somalia in '93, if you read the details of the battle of Mogadishu, you can see that the supermotivated, supertrained D-Boys saved the day by taking command on a personal level. So the value of an elite force cannot be denied in focused encounters.

Of course, to conduct boot-on-the-ground operations for areas of hundreds of thousands of square miles, you can't really substitute a small force when you really need a huge one.

I think our training methodology and standards could be set to run a 10-week program that would churn out soldiers that we could favorably compare to any standing national army on earth, for a country of our size.

So, in the end, I think we need the volunteer motivated elites, as well as a massive army of recruits.

Another positive result of this would be that we could make the children of our elites fight alongside the rest of our valiant soldiers, so that they would (hopefully) not be sent to die for war profiteering or other morally bankrupt reasoning behind the shenanigans that we currently endure.
 

1prophet

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
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I am looking at the bottom of the page and I see an advertisement on Anandtechs Politics and News, it is an MSN search box and in it I see the words Most Popular Searches and four pictures of the following women Britney Spears, Anjelina Jolie, Jessica Simpson, and of course Paris Hilton in that order.

I am willing to bet many Americans know significantly more about those women than what is going on in Iraq or Washington.

Perhaps a draft is not such a bad idea.;)
 

mfs378

Senior member
May 19, 2003
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Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Conscript armies don't really work. Highly trained elite volunteer armies are the way to go.

So where do non-elite national guard troops with day jobs fit into the picture?
 

jrenz

Banned
Jan 11, 2006
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Originally posted by: mfs378
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Conscript armies don't really work. Highly trained elite volunteer armies are the way to go.

So where do non-elite national guard troops with day jobs fit into the picture?

National Guard troops are not as under-trained as you make them out to be. In many cases, they have more valuable skill sets than active duty soldiers, due to the fact that they *have* civilian jobs. Police officers, lawyers, doctors, construction workers, mechanics, etc.... in addition to their MOS training.

"Elite" isn't what I would use to describe the majority of line unit troops. Rangers, Special forces, etc. are elite, and the National Guard has a good number of those types of soldiers as well.
 

KGB

Diamond Member
May 11, 2000
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Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Conscript armies don't really work. Highly trained elite volunteer armies are the way to go.

I think the Israelis might have a different view on that.

Actually, I think a draft would solve quite a few problems.
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
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Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Conscript armies don't really work. Highly trained elite volunteer armies are the way to go.

Yeah, but when there is a war going on nobody wants to volunteer. Go figure. And many people are talking this may talke 20 years??
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
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The core of the Israeli army is still a professional soldiery. Not to mention that even their conscripts receive much more training than your average conscript in say, the old soviet army or the chinese army.

There is a huge difference there. Most conscripts receive a smaller amount of training and lesser quality weapons. This cannot be said for the IDF or the National Guard in most cases.
 

KGB

Diamond Member
May 11, 2000
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Originally posted by: LegendKiller
The core of the Israeli army is still a professional soldiery. Not to mention that even their conscripts receive much more training than your average conscript in say, the old soviet army or the chinese army.

There is a huge difference there. Most conscripts receive a smaller amount of training and lesser quality weapons. This cannot be said for the IDF or the National Guard in most cases.


You're quite right. However, what do we really need in Iraq? More career people? More officers? No. We need more boots. I agree with an earlier post about the need for fundamental, but quick training (10-12wks) instead of a comprehensive approach.

 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Conscript armies don't really work. Highly trained elite volunteer armies are the way to go.

There is some validity to what you say---but it also important to say you always have an admixture of less elite types----and the damage that even a few of those can do at a place like
Abu Ghrab is not to be underestimated.

But the point I wish to make is that is that GWB&co has really screwed the US military. When push comes to shove---any nation can achieve self defense by having a huge standing army
with all requirements to 100% pay and support those troops a standing army implies. Or any nation can opt for some elite types, while maintaining a large reserve unit presence where civilian employers have first dibs on the services of these reserve troops---and in fact these civilian employers keep costs down and military readiness up because there is a large reserve of pre trained military personnel ready to go.

But even during the darkest days of Vietnam---it was fairly rare to have a reserve activated.

And during this present crapola--its not only 100% that a reserve unit will be activated---but also almost 100% that it will be activated multiple times---and who in their right mind will permit that?

It can only have the net effect of destroying our reserve army system.
 

Balt

Lifer
Mar 12, 2000
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Not gonna happen. The article mentions the political consequences of calling up more reservists, but it's not like it would be better to require mandatory service from people who had no desire to enlist.

Right now enlistment is going to suffer because of low unemployment and the increasingly unpopular war in Iraq. Until then, they probably aren't going to have much luck.
 

duragezic

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
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Doesn't seem like a good move. The majority of the public would not go with that AT ALL. But, I don't think the military is severely missing recruitment goals... just new enlistments have slowed down lately has support for the war waivers. I know new enlistments rose a bit after 9/11, but I'm not sure how long that continued. So I don't think reinstating the draft, for all the downsides, is worth it due to goals not quite met.

Coming from someone who is in the age range to be drafted, I don't all out oppose it in times of need, but it is just so screwed up over there.... I don't know if more US soldiers dead will help anything. I feel it would be bad to leave right now considering how screwed up the country is, the enemies we've made from doing that, and most importantly the 3600+ soldiers that have died... if we just pack up and leave, they have died in vain and it is doubtful Iraqi forces can keep down insurgents, so the country goes to hell more than it already is.

OTOH, I don't know if more forces or staying there for several more years is the the right move either, as it seems really bad over there, and I just don't know if it can be won. People in the military and government are certainly more knowledgable about these situations than my almost uneducated opinion, but it just seems like there is nothing good that can come out of it now, and that it is impossible to win.

I suppose I would be pretty damn scared to be drafted and go over there, but I would go. Well not like I'd have a choice, and it'd be kinda crappy to be drafted a semester from graduating, but I don't oppose serving my country, that's for sure, so I'd try my best.

My brother, who is in the National Guard, is leaving tomorrow to go back to Iraq... it will be his THIRD Iraq tour, and he has been to Afghanistan once too. He will be going back to Baghdad; gone for a year. When I seen him a couple of weeks ago, he didn't seem scared or concerned at all. I can't believe he is about to leave for his fourth tour since 2001, while in between that time was of course working his job, raising his kids, etc... yet he keeps his head up and is always in good spirits when I see him. He's a really good guy and I look up to him. It sucks to know he's going to one of the most dangerous places in the world, but I still appreciate his service for this country.


If there are 1.4 million active duty soldiers, and 160,000 in Iraq, how come they are still so short? Even if you consider another 160,000 are currently on the 9 month off deal (isn't it suppose to be 12 on, 12 off, but its now 15 on, 9 off?), that still leaves a lot. Granted many are on other bases around the world, in the US, on support/logistics roles, but aren't there at least a couple hundred thousand or more that are technically ready at any time? They would meet pressure, or might not even be allowed to have a force of say 400,000, but isn't there currently enough active duty soldiers to deploy that much to Iraq? Or do we not have the logistics and infrastructure to deploy and handle that many?
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
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A report commissioned by the Pentagon called stop-loss a ?short-term fix? enabling the Army to meet ongoing troop deployment requirements, but said such policies ?risk breaking the force as recruitment and retention problems mount.? It was written by Andrew Krepinevich, a retired Army officer. Thompson added, ?The persistent use of stop-loss underscores the fact that the war-fighting burden is being carried by a handful of soldiers while the vast majority of citizens incur no sacrifice at all.?

http://www.outsidethebeltway.c...0_into_extended_duty_/

That's from an article dated Jan 30, 2006. I can't seem to find any current articles about stop loss?
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,833
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Originally posted by: KGBMAN
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
The core of the Israeli army is still a professional soldiery. Not to mention that even their conscripts receive much more training than your average conscript in say, the old soviet army or the chinese army.

There is a huge difference there. Most conscripts receive a smaller amount of training and lesser quality weapons. This cannot be said for the IDF or the National Guard in most cases.


You're quite right. However, what do we really need in Iraq? More career people? More officers? No. We need more boots. I agree with an earlier post about the need for fundamental, but quick training (10-12wks) instead of a comprehensive approach.

That's a good idea, let's spread some of the risk around. I'll bet we could get more voluteers for the services if they knew they weren't afraid they were going to get stop lossed into doing 8 years.
 

jrenz

Banned
Jan 11, 2006
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Originally posted by: Lemon law

And during this present crapola--its not only 100% that a reserve unit will be activated---but also almost 100% that it will be activated multiple times

I know of many, many units which haven't been activated once.

---and who in their right mind will permit that?

It can only have the net effect of destroying our reserve army system.
[/quote]

You don't have a clue about what you are talking about. The war in Iraq has arguably been one of the best things to happen to the Guard and Reserves in quite a long time. The infusion of money and the chance to be deployed has given them a boost in training, experienced leaders, and public support.

The reserve forces have gone from being a once-a-month "let's go to the bar with the boys", to a combat ready, highly trained, professional war fighting organization. There were many people who had been in a reserve unit for 20 years without a deployment, and had little thought of going to war, but now those people are leaving in droves as they are replaced by younger, more motivated soldiers, many of whom have the experience of a combat tour and the leadership needed to help sustain the reserve system.
 

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
13,923
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Originally posted by: jrenz
Originally posted by: Lemon law

And during this present crapola--its not only 100% that a reserve unit will be activated---but also almost 100% that it will be activated multiple times

I know of many, many units which haven't been activated once.

---and who in their right mind will permit that?

It can only have the net effect of destroying our reserve army system.

You don't have a clue about what you are talking about. The war in Iraq has arguably been one of the best things to happen to the Guard and Reserves in quite a long time. The infusion of money and the chance to be deployed has given them a boost in training, experienced leaders, and public support.

The reserve forces have gone from being a once-a-month "let's go to the bar with the boys", to a combat ready, highly trained, professional war fighting organization. There were many people who had been in a reserve unit for 20 years without a deployment, and had little thought of going to war, but now those people are leaving in droves as they are replaced by younger, more motivated soldiers, many of whom have the experience of a combat tour and the leadership needed to help sustain the reserve system.[/quote]

Government propaganda got you too huh?
 

jrenz

Banned
Jan 11, 2006
1,788
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Originally posted by: Hacp
Originally posted by: jrenz
Originally posted by: Lemon law

And during this present crapola--its not only 100% that a reserve unit will be activated---but also almost 100% that it will be activated multiple times

I know of many, many units which haven't been activated once.

---and who in their right mind will permit that?

It can only have the net effect of destroying our reserve army system.


You don't have a clue about what you are talking about. The war in Iraq has arguably been one of the best things to happen to the Guard and Reserves in quite a long time. The infusion of money and the chance to be deployed has given them a boost in training, experienced leaders, and public support.

The reserve forces have gone from being a once-a-month "let's go to the bar with the boys", to a combat ready, highly trained, professional war fighting organization. There were many people who had been in a reserve unit for 20 years without a deployment, and had little thought of going to war, but now those people are leaving in droves as they are replaced by younger, more motivated soldiers, many of whom have the experience of a combat tour and the leadership needed to help sustain the reserve system.
Government propaganda got you too huh?

Even when it's coming from the mouths of those who see it first hand, it's still labeled as propaganda. Par for the liberal course :laugh:

Edited to fix your screwed up quoting.
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
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The war is hugely unpopular, anybody who even suggests restoring the draft will be voted out or impeached. It will never happen as people are not passionate about the justification for the war. Americans pride themselves with being the land of the free and an involuntary military would go against American values and dilute the skills and abilities of the US military.

As for the comment above about university students going; that's the worst idea ever in war times as you have no idea how long wars will progress and you need to continue to develop technology to stay ahead of the enemy. Technology played a critical role in WW2 and to ship off the best and brightest to serve as peons is utterly ridiculous. Besides it's the nerds who are the weakest ;)
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,684
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There won't be a Draft- instead, the Admin will just hire more mercenaries... err, contractors, yeh, that's it... pay 4 times the money to their pals in the military contracting bizness... last time i checked, there were almost as many contractors in Iraq as GI's, mostly on Uncle Sam's dime...

Viewing it from the perspective of the Lootocracy, it's a win-win situation...

"develop technology to stay ahead of the enemy"- which enemy is that, anyway? If technology were the answer to our current situation, we wouldn't have a situation- the insurgency in Iraq and Afghanistan would have been crushed long ago... Advanced technology is of little use in insurgency warfare...
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
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Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Conscript armies don't really work. Highly trained elite volunteer armies are the way to go.

Worked fine in the last war we won, ww2. The level of intelligence would certainly be higher if pulling from the population as a whole instead of just those with no college plans, no prospects, etc where they're drawn heavily from currently.

I am against a draft since it's an abrogation of freedom and gives mans fundamental right, right to life, to the state or compels he sacrifice it in battle for the state. Worse than slavery.

Nothing we have to worry about though. These politicians couldn't fight their elective wars with a draft so they won't be instituting one.