Request to Audiophiles: Speakers

[MaxDepth]

I am in the process of buying in wall speakers and I wonder what the differences are between woofer cone materials.

I can get either (or mix):
- Glass Composite 3-Way, Dual Voice Coil ($64)
- Polypropalene 2-Way ($56)
- Kevlar 2-Way ($44)


I want to wire speakers into separate rooms in the house so I can listen to music in all rooms at a decent level instead of blaring in one and having it carry into the rest.

 

[sdifox]

cone material is just cone material. It's the implementation that matters. You want the whole house to have the same sound or are you installing a control panel in every room?

PS Audiophiles will sneer at your in walls 🙂

 

[MaxDepth]

I am building a control panel (software) that will work by remote. The house is only one floor and not blocked by doors, except in the two bedrooms.


As for those folks -- they can stay outside smoking their french cigs and bitch while I have all the good food and warmth inside.

 

[sdifox]

Originally posted by: MaxDepth
I am building a control panel (software) that will work by remote. The house is only one floor and not blocked by doors, except in the two bedrooms.


As for those folks -- they can stay outside smoking their french cigs and bitch while I have all the good food and warmth inside.

can you provide a floorplan layout? hand drawn is ok. Dimentions would help. I am assuming it's a bungalow and attic access is not an issue?

 

[erwos]

Meh, I should think most audiophiles would understand that a whole-house speaker system has a different purpose and quality requirement than a dedicated listening room.

 

[Tiamat]

Originally posted by: sdifox
cone material is just cone material. It's the implementation that matters. You want the whole house to have the same sound or are you installing a control panel in every room?

PS Audiophiles will sneer at your in walls 🙂

unless they are triads 🙂

Cone material is one of the many design decisions that are made. Most materials have certain problems and it is up to the designer to use the appropriate magnet structures, and most definitely, design crossovers to mitigate these problems so that the speaker as a whole is acceptable.

For example, aluminum cones are relatively lightweight and stiff allowing for close to pistonic action that is desired. They have resonances (as do all other materials) and if the crossover does not deal with these resonances, the speaker will fail at producing excellent sound.

 

[Slick5150]

I prefer waffle cones myself..

But yes, I'd agree with others that there are a whole host of things to consider as far as speaker design is concerned that would ultimately impact the decision as to what material would work best.

 

[DisgruntledVirus]

Cone material matters, but only in so far as the design. That's why high end speaker manufacturers use exoctic process/materials to make them (Beryllium cones, diamond cones, sandwiches of differenent materials, etc). The lighter and stiffer the cone is the easier it is to drive and more likely it is to not distort provided the rest of the speaker is designed and built correctly.

I would look more at the speaker model itself as a whole before deciding. Look at reviews of that specific model. Me personally I like glass composite and kevlar based speakers better, but that is entirely based upon my personal tastes in sound reproduction.

 

[Howard]

What you're asking and what you want to find out seem to be a little different.

To answer your question: cone material in woofers doesn't matter. The frequency range they're usually employed in is relatively low and so the cone doesn't have to be particularly well-designed to have a smooth response. Even paper will work (and paper is used in most of the best woofers available). However, if the woofer becomes larger or is asked to cover higher frequencies as well (as in pro two-way speakers), the cone design becomes more and more important.

However, what you seem to want to find out is which one of those will sound the best. The answer to that is impossible to give since there isn't enough information.

 

[MaxDepth]

wow, thanks for all the replies.

A little bit more information:
- I intend to put these speakers in the ceiling. I have a 1940's ranch single story house with an unfinished attic. Looks like a large rectangular box. No doors except for the two bedrooms on one end of the house. The rest of the house is like an oval track between the rooms.
- I have two very nice AV receivers that I'd hate to sell just to buy something else. One AV is connected to the HTPC for a home theater and the other I'd like to have for the rest of the house.
- I plan on using my scrap wood (beach or oak or cherry) to build boxes in between the joists and over the speakers to give it a sound chamber.

 

[Rubycon]

Cone materials are the most controversial and focus of many designs primarily because the end user who knows little about the physics behind loudspeaker operation can actually see this part move. The suspension, voice coil winding methods, gap flux, as well as controls to keep all operation linear are far more important to accurate response across driven frequencies and amplitudes. A pulp (paper) cone on a properly designed system is far more desirable than some "atomic force assisted rhodium atomized deposit layer coating" (audiophile nonsense!) woofer snapper that costs a hundred thousand dollars that looks like a work of art and blows fiberglass chunks at you when plucked at with 2kW of Krell power, etc. (people with more dollars then sense I suppose) But it's fun watching and laughing and they usually have excellent wine cellars so I never mind visiting. 😉

 

[Tiamat]

Originally posted by: Rubycon
Cone materials are the most controversial and focus of many designs primarily because the end user who knows little about the physics behind loudspeaker operation can actually see this part move. The suspension, voice coil winding methods, gap flux, as well as controls to keep all operation linear are far more important to accurate response across driven frequencies and amplitudes. A pulp (paper) cone on a properly designed system is far more desirable than some "atomic force assisted rhodium atomized deposit layer coating" (audiophile nonsense!) woofer snapper that costs a hundred thousand dollars that looks like a work of art and blows fiberglass chunks at you when plucked at with 2kW of Krell power, etc. (people with more dollars then sense I suppose) But it's fun watching and laughing and they usually have excellent wine cellars so I never mind visiting. 😉

And excellent single-malt scotches if you are into that sort of thing 🙂

 

[Howard]

Originally posted by: Rubycon
Cone materials are the most controversial and focus of many designs primarily because the end user who knows little about the physics behind loudspeaker operation can actually see this part move. The suspension, voice coil winding methods, gap flux, as well as controls to keep all operation linear are far more important to accurate response across driven frequencies and amplitudes. A pulp (paper) cone on a properly designed system is far more desirable than some "atomic force assisted rhodium atomized deposit layer coating" (audiophile nonsense!) woofer snapper that costs a hundred thousand dollars that looks like a work of art and blows fiberglass chunks at you when plucked at with 2kW of Krell power, etc. (people with more dollars then sense I suppose) But it's fun watching and laughing and they usually have excellent wine cellars so I never mind visiting. 😉

Eh, who cares about the way the voice coil is wound as long as it's tight and square (squared up, not square-sectioned)?

 

[cheesehead]

Originally posted by: Tiamat


unless they are triads 🙂

Speakercraft, Atlantic Technologies, Bohlender-Graebner, and the ever popular Bowers & Wilikins all do nice in-wall speakers. If you buy used, you can get great prices on these. I especially like the Bohlender-Graebners.

Originally posted by: Howard
To answer your question: cone material in woofers doesn't matter. The frequency range they're usually employed in is relatively low and so the cone doesn't have to be particularly well-designed to have a smooth response. Even paper will work (and paper is used in most of the best woofers available).

That's not entirely true.

Different materials have different densities, malleability, and stiffness. All of these can change a speaker's sound quite a lot.

There are four major indicators of sound quality: frequency response, harmonic distortion, energy storage, and dynamic compression. While the first is a function of the crossover and the last is a function of the woofer's motor structure, the other two can be greatly altered by the cone. Metal-coned woofers, for example, often have a little less distortion and a lot less energy storage than paper-cone woofers (which can be VERY good if designed properly), but all of that distortion is high-order distortion instead of the more pleasing 2nd-order distortion of a paper cone. Metal cones' distortion also skyrockets above a given frequency, often one at which a similar paper cone is still quite usable.

A good example of the differences between two cones would be Seas' line of high-end drivers. The only difference between the Nextel series and the Excel series is that the former uses a treated paper cone and the latter uses a magnesium cone - and they're very different woofers.

As

Originally posted by: Howard

Eh, who cares about the way the voice coil is wound as long as it's tight and square (squared up, not square-sectioned)?

You can use more or less windings of thicker or thinner wire. You can put few layers of windings over a large area, or many layers over a small area.

 

[cheesehead]

Oops...double-post.

 

[Howard]

Originally posted by: Cheesehead

Originally posted by: Tiamat


unless they are triads 🙂

Speakercraft, Atlantic Technologies, Bohlender-Graebner, and the ever popular Bowers & Wilikins all do nice in-wall speakers. If you buy used, you can get great prices on these. I especially like the Bohlender-Graebners.

Originally posted by: Howard
To answer your question: cone material in woofers doesn't matter. The frequency range they're usually employed in is relatively low and so the cone doesn't have to be particularly well-designed to have a smooth response. Even paper will work (and paper is used in most of the best woofers available).

That's not entirely true.

Different materials have different densities, malleability, and stiffness. All of these can change a speaker's sound quite a lot.

You're preaching to the choir here (except for the malleability part). Note that he said woofer and not midwoofer. I suppose I could have been nicer and actually addressed what he wanted to find out.

Originally posted by: Howard

Eh, who cares about the way the voice coil is wound as long as it's tight and square (squared up, not square-sectioned)?

You can use more or less windings of thicker or thinner wire. You can put few layers of windings over a large area, or many layers over a small area.[/quote]
Yes, but what does that have to do with the method that the wire is wind using?

 

[DisgruntledVirus]

Originally posted by: Howard

Originally posted by: Cheesehead

Originally posted by: Tiamat


unless they are triads 🙂

Speakercraft, Atlantic Technologies, Bohlender-Graebner, and the ever popular Bowers & Wilikins all do nice in-wall speakers. If you buy used, you can get great prices on these. I especially like the Bohlender-Graebners.

Originally posted by: Howard
To answer your question: cone material in woofers doesn't matter. The frequency range they're usually employed in is relatively low and so the cone doesn't have to be particularly well-designed to have a smooth response. Even paper will work (and paper is used in most of the best woofers available).

That's not entirely true.

Different materials have different densities, malleability, and stiffness. All of these can change a speaker's sound quite a lot.

You're preaching to the choir here (except for the malleability part). Note that he said woofer and not midwoofer. I suppose I could have been nicer and actually addressed what he wanted to find out.

Even though it's a sub-woofer, cone material still matters. It doesn't matter nearly as much as a woofer, or tweeter, but it matters. The other parts of the speaker are much more important as Ruby mentioned, but cone material still does matter. Paper/metal/fabric cones all sound different and give off a differen't "feeling" to the sound.

With the frequencies a sub plays though, it most likely won't make a huge difference (and if you're not an audiophile you most likely couldn't tell the difference). At the price range in the OP I don't think you are looking for audiophile level of reproduction. Based on that I would go with whichever is heavier assuming you can find weights.

 

[Howard]

Originally posted by: DisgruntledVirus

Originally posted by: Howard

Originally posted by: Cheesehead

Originally posted by: Tiamat


unless they are triads 🙂

Speakercraft, Atlantic Technologies, Bohlender-Graebner, and the ever popular Bowers & Wilikins all do nice in-wall speakers. If you buy used, you can get great prices on these. I especially like the Bohlender-Graebners.

Originally posted by: Howard
To answer your question: cone material in woofers doesn't matter. The frequency range they're usually employed in is relatively low and so the cone doesn't have to be particularly well-designed to have a smooth response. Even paper will work (and paper is used in most of the best woofers available).

That's not entirely true.

Different materials have different densities, malleability, and stiffness. All of these can change a speaker's sound quite a lot.

You're preaching to the choir here (except for the malleability part). Note that he said woofer and not midwoofer. I suppose I could have been nicer and actually addressed what he wanted to find out.

Even though it's a sub-woofer, cone material still matters.

short answer: no no no no no
long answer: Only if it's required to do frequencies above what a sub normally does.